The end of an era

by The Cheat on Jun 25, 2007 12:04 AM CDT in Recaps Comment 103 comments

I'm sitting here at my computer, completely avoiding writing a recap. It's not as if getting swept by the Cubs was a shock -- I was surprised they didn't get swept last meeting. I've been way down on this team for pretty much the whole season -- and it's not as if the sweep even hurt. The sheer number of losses this season has anesthetized me to the pain of tough loss, or even an embarrassing sweep to second rate team in a second rate divison.

The last month, the 5-22 stretch, the ridiculously ineffective bullpen, the inevitable Podsednik groin injury, the half inning between Erstad's DL trips all have combined for what might be a best case scenario for the long-term health of this franchise. If the Sox had some healthy outfielders and league average bullpen, they'd probably be hovering around the .500 mark falsely believing that they had a shot at the playoffs both this year and next. Instead, I sit here waiting word on which player(s) will be shipped out for future help.

While I'd certainly rather be writing about White Sox winners, I want the Sox to get back to competing for division titles as quickly as possible. And thanks to a ridiculously unproductive farm system, that meant the Sox had to lose, and lose a lot, in spectacular fashion to (hopefully) finally get some youth and players worth building around into this franchise.

So I'm not the least bit upset that the Sox got swept this weekend. Today is the first day of the next White Sox division title run.

Because I'm a spiteful ass
The following email from "Kirk" entered my mailbox on May 17 in response to this entry.

"cheated" out of quality

Readers were recently offered this insightful sentiment on southsidesox.com:

"It was just more lifeless baseball from a lifeless team inexplicably treading water above .500. "

That "lifeless" team just won its 4th straight series and played 2 of its most complete games of the season in the past 24 hours.

If your gonna write a column, don't admit you didn't even watch the full game, blogboy.

If you ever want a quality columnist from the actual dedicated fanbase let me know I'd be happy to contribute.

While I'm blissfully unaware of where to find Kirk's thoughts on the the White Sox, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy pointing out that I was able to nail the direction of the team while only half-watching the games. Heck, I haven't even been half-watching the games lately -- it's more like quarter-watching or third-watching -- which is part of the reason there hasn't really been any game-specific commentary in the recaps. As many of you have stated in the comments, there haven't been many reasons to watch the games lately.

And now, with the Sox days or weeks away from being ~~dismantled~~ retooled, there isn't any reason to watch. I'm going to take a little break from the games. I'll resume watching when there's some new blood on the field. So for now, feel free to write your own game recaps. I'm on vacation, though I'll do my best to be all over the impending trade speculation.

I'm gonna talk to Studes tomorrow to see if I can write an anatomy of what went wrong with the Sox for THT; an attempt to highlight how the Sox went from perennial contenders and World Series champions to one of the worst teams in baseball in such a short period of time. If it doesn't end up there, I'll post it here for sure. It'd be hypocritical of me to tell you to skip Phil Rogers back patting since I did a bit of it myself here, but he nails a few reasons in the last few paragraphs of his latest column.

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AAA

I just looked at the AAA Sox stats. Brutal.

Brian "the next Aaron Rowand" Anderson .233 3/18
Tomas "the next Juan Uribe" Perez .210 3/18
Casey "logjam at 1B" Rogowski .198 2/20
Charle "would take Hough over" Haeger 3-10 5.28
Craig "not even wanted by the Pirates" Wilson .180 1/5

The only bright spots are that Lance Broadway and Gavin Floyd have ERA's in the mid-3's.

I'm at the point where I'm OK trading Dye. I'll NEVER EVER agree with a trade of Buerhle. This kid is what the Sox need now and for the next 5 years--a quality, frontline lefty starting pitcher. I went through this with Robin Ventura, Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, and (even) Frank Thomas as their days drew to a close on the South Side. I need a new hobby....

by nancyrocks on Jun 25, 2007 12:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

positive things on the farm

Bats:
AAA: Sweeney & Richar
AA: Getz before the injury. Schurnstein (whats his deal?)
Low-A: Carter

Pitching:
AAA: Broadway & Floyd
AA: Egbert & Gonzalez
Hi-A: McCulloch
Low-A: Faust De Los Santos

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jun 25, 2007 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Productive Minor Leaguers

Or, rather, the total lack thereof, contributed most to the plunge they've taken over the last year and a half. Specifically, I mean position players, because Danks is and McCarthy was at least serviceable in their roles, which is more than can be said for anyone outside of Joe Crede, though he is something of a disappointment himself (not totally, of course, his defense has been spectacular).

In any case, the Sox have proven susceptible to injury because Kenny built his team around the concept of the undervalued veteran. Dye, Thome, Podsednik, Iguchi, Uribe and Pierzynski were acquired, I believe, with the assumption that they were far more cost effective than the rest of baseball thought they were. This proved more or less true, but it also meant accepting the now-evident risk: past age 27, injury depletes skills across the board in all but the very elite sort of player, who is able either to adapt or to avoid the consequences of age.

Is this such a bad strategy? Not especially. It usually means that, as the sole (or nearly so) valuer of these particular players, you get leverage at the negotiating table. Thus Thome came with Straight Cash, and the rest of them have manageable contracts. If we were developing talent like we'd hoped to do, we could simply plug in young and cheap.

Sweeney for Dye, Anderson for Rowand, Fields for Crede, Valido for Uribe, and then go out and get an undervalued left fielder (Edmonds might have worked here, actually) and a cheap 2B and you're back in business. The farm system and other holes are restocked by dealing from the starting pitching surplus each year, hence the expiring contracts, one after the other. The draft, in this case, would only be expected to contribute league average-type guys to replace the ones dealt, as well as to restock position players.

Obviously, we know what has happened with that plan and I'd add also that we aged much faster than Kenny expected. Were this team successful this year, as you point out, we'd still be in this hole because there's the one hole that's keeping the cycle from turning: the farm system.

by colintj on Jun 25, 2007 12:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Very eloquent.

Excellently stated, right on. You summed it up beautifully.

by dantesox on Jun 25, 2007 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just curious

Does anyone feel that Kenny Williams makes himself available to the media a bit too much? Besides Epstein and Cashman, I can't really point out most GMs in a lineup if my life depended on it. Being from Chicago I would recognize Hendry of course, but I feel like as soon as something he does goes bad, Kenny jumps in front of the camera or radio to talk about it. Just wondering what others have to say??

Anyways, I'm not down on him at all this year, I wish we were better, but looking at the division, cheat is right about this,I'm not even sleeping on the Royals in 2010, we need to get younger fast.

The biggest off season moves will likely be the bullpen guys we sign to get to Jenks. If we sign a huge centerfielder thats big, but what will seperate the great teams in the central is the best bullpen. Thats why Cleveland looked like us last year, Minnesota is always in it, and Zumaya, Rodney, Jones and Walker nearly took Detroit all the way.

by tubesox on Jun 25, 2007 1:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Why isn't KW held responsible for the minors???

Everybody can agree that the farm system is absolute garbage. Why hasn't KW claimed responsibility? Why hasn't anyone pointed the fingers?

Is it because, as Ozzie said a year and half ago, that we traded our entire farm system for Carl Everett? That was Ozzie's comment when Carl was spouting off about leaving the team. If this is true, great job KW. Take your tough guy act out of town.

by LVSoxFan on Jun 25, 2007 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ugh

in 03, the White Sox traded Frank Francisco, Josh Rupe & Anthony Webster to Texas for Everett.

In 04, traded Jon Rauch & Gary Majewski to the Expos for Everett.

Francisco had one good year and Rauch is ok, thats about all that was lost. Everett was pretty good in 03, but nothing special in 04 & 05.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jun 25, 2007 1:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

go away

by colintj on Jun 25, 2007 2:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually,

Up until this weekend, KW hadn't been very visible at all through most of the June Swoon. I was beginning to wonder why he hadn't been out in front of the media when things seemed to be heading south in a hurry. That was bothering me, that he seemed to be sitting back and not doing anything. Maybe his tolerance for pain is greater than the average fan.

"Looks like the joke's on us, doesn't it?"

by Happy Felsch on Jun 25, 2007 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Talk about kicking someone when he's down!

If I were Rogers, I'd make sure I have a bodyguard next time he runs into Williams.

by ballyb on Jun 25, 2007 7:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I take issue with Rogers'

Argument about how the Sox need more "gristled" scouts around KW -- no, they need way less -- that way we won't ever have to sit through a Darrin Erstad, Scott Pods, Jerry Owens outfield ever again.

I want his stat guys, Fabian and Wilder, to be his right hand men.

As for the Garcia and BMAC trades, I had no problem with either one, and I still don't. Trading for pitching prospects with overpriced garbage like Garcia is fine. Trading a more "ready" BMAC for the higher upside Danks is also fine.

As for this season, I think Cheat sums it up pretty well, but I don't see how calling this mess was such a prescient prediction: most reasonable fans had this team pegged for around 85 wins this season. Personally that was my "best case" scenario.

With guys like Erstad and Pods making up 2/3 of the positions you want to get at least a .800OPS from, it's not hard to believe that the offense would suck. With all the important position players on the wrong side of 28, it also wasn't hard to predict that their production would fall off.

The one thing I was wrong about was the bullpen. I thought the bullpen would be good, the only good part of the team. Well obviously not.

by madvillian on Jun 25, 2007 7:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Cooper

Everybody thought he was a genius after '05. Politte, Vizcaino, Cotts, Marte, Hermanson, Jenks. These guys were all garage sale specials (except Cotts). He had the Midas touch. I was afraid the Yankees would poach him from us.

I think everybody thought he'd be able to work magic with MacD, Sisco, Aardsma, Logan, etc. But there's a saying about a pig's ear and a purse.

Sometimes you get lucky at the garage sale, sometimes you just get junk.

by ruffster on Jun 25, 2007 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the big flaws going into '07 were:

Pods, Erstad penciled in as the 1 2 punch, and no true 4th outfielder yet again. Then the Ozzie-like bench warmers Cintron and company didnt help when these guys both went down. I still dont think there wouldve been much of a difference if they both stayed healthy though.
Crede should have had the surgery last off-season, most of us here knew that.
Thome, Konerko, Dye were only getting older and slower(although if Paully gets slower Im pretty sure time starts to go backwards).
The bullpen was a huge gamble with unproven giants that could throw hard but couldnt pitch.

This season isnt really a suprise to me.
The writing was on the wall.

Of course I didnt think the offense would be this atrocious, just moderately bad.
I also never figured the starters would be this rock solid.

I'll take the lean years due to the championship, but next years slogan better be "these kids can play."

Im with the cheat in saying the games have almost been unwatchable. For over a month Id watch the pitching, then channel surf for about 5 minutes while the guys went 3-up 3-down, and come back for the defense. The total opposite of 2005, when there were games Id tune out the Sox pitching, because I knew they werent going to give anything up and I could watch a couple minutes of family guy or whatever else was on.

we sux

by Gus on Jun 25, 2007 8:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hindsight sure is 20/20

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 25, 2007 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly...

...everybody pooh-pood the signings of Dye, AJ, picking up Jenks, etc. that made '05 happen. But it worked out pretty good!

People squealed when KW traded Garcia, but I rememebr thinking his arm was kinda shot anyway from last year. And people are still grousing about the Rowand trade, even though Thome has been the best hitter on the team since he joined.

It's tough to trade away guys that brought you a title. Rogers' article had too much of that hindsight 20/20 "see, I'm a genius" slant to it. KW has to make the moves and see the future, and that's pretty tough.

The team can't make Crede get surgery. It's his choice.

After after the way Buehrle's 2nd half went last year, people woulda crucified KW for signing him to 5 yrs as misguided loyalty to a player.

The second guessing and "see, I told you so" stuff is just a joke. Anybody can do that with highsight.

by ruffster on Jun 25, 2007 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

poo poo?

I never 'poo pooed' Dye, I loved the Jenks signing, AJ I thought could help(despite Chicago already having enough pollocks).
Vazquez for Young was an acceptable risk. Even after his 60 pitch limit last year.
I knew Freddy was done and loved that move.
I liked the Danks deal, too.
Rowand is a tricky one because I never wanted to see Frank go, and I really hate how KW handled Big Frank at the end.
Thome has certainly exceeded my expectations.
You're right about Crede though, back surgery is a tricky thing.
I was mad they resigned Pods, and thought Erstad was a band-aid for a bullet wound.
Then again, I still think Brian Anderson should be the centerfielder, since he saves a run a game with his defense.
I hope you are talking more about Rogers than me as your 'everybody'.
I was on record as saying I thought the Sox would suck this year in March(unfortunately not on this site but still).
I thought the offense would be slightly better than this, and the pitching I figured would be average. I didnt see the the starters being phenomenal and the pen complete crap but the end result is the same.

we sux

by Gus on Jun 25, 2007 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

don't take it personally...

... i'm addressing rogers and the media in general.

i was skeptical about erstad but i suspect kw thought he might be a good pickup like dye was. He was cheap, but I am disappointed he's gotten playing time and Anderson hasn't.

i was concerned about the sox this year. like you i thought the starting pitching was in trouble, i thought the bullpen would be ok, and i thought the offense would have trouble because i knew dye couldn't repeat what he did last year.

throw in the bullpen woes, crede's injury, everybody on offense underperforming, and it's a recipe for a 70-something win team.

I like sweeney, but i would hope we can bring him along so he succeeds at the ML level instead of just throwing him in and messing him up.

i think KW brought us a championship team and while some moves have backfired, I don't think he goes under the bus. he's shows the courage to make tough trades and moves, and i think we might be pleasantly surprised with what he comes up with between now and spring training '08.

by ruffster on Jun 25, 2007 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

its not all hindsight:

too early indeed

i agree its way too early for trade talk.
Im not very optimistic about the Sox chances this year, but its way too soon to start shipping guys out of town.
I think the Sox really dropped the ball with the top of the line guys like Abreu last year and Soriano this off-season.
As it stands, I could see the Sox making a run for the wildcard with the depth of pitching(albeit no top K/9 guys) and some timely home runs. Small ball my ass...

by Gus on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 06:47:50 PM EDT
~~~Still clinging to shreds of optimism here

5 runs

too much for this variation of the Sox.
thank you
good night

by Gus on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:24:17 AM EDT

0-2

Cookie, I quit until this team get 5 over .500, thats just pathetic

by tubesox on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:24:21 AM EDT

see you next year than

.
by Gus on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:28:38 AM EDT

~~~looks like may 2 my towel was completely in the ring. the internal homer stomped out with logic.

we sux

by Gus on Jun 25, 2007 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This season isnt really a suprise to me.??

13 under, after 71 games. Come on.

by ballyb on Jun 25, 2007 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok 13 under is bad

youre right.
I didnt think they'd be Royals bad.
you got me there.

I knew they werent contenders however, and that it wasnt all that close.

we sux

by Gus on Jun 25, 2007 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is an insanely bad team

Has anyone looked at our offensive VORP's lately? This confirms what we've been watching (well, peeking through my fingers occasionally between afternoon naps):

Jim Thome 18.0
Paul Konerko 5.7
Tadahito Iguchi 3.9
Luis Terrero 3.3
A.J. Pierzynski 3.1
Scott Podsednik 2.3
Darin Erstad 1.2

Josh Fields -0.6
Jermaine Dye -0.9
Brian Anderson -2.4
Ryan Sweeney -2.9
Toby Hall -3.2
Angel Gonzalez -3.5
Pablo Ozuna -3.5
Gustavo Molina -4.4
Jerry Owens -5.4
Rob Mackowiak -5.6
Juan Uribe -6.5
Alex Cintron -7.0
Joe Crede -8.9

And this doesn't take into account defense. Fields, Dye, Hall, Ozuna, Mack & Cintron give you WAY below average defense on top of their woeful offense.

We could release of all these clowns and scour the waiver wires and get much better production. It can't get worse than what these sacks of shit are doing out there.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 8:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah...

and Thome was the reason why we sucked last year, and why we're sucking this year. His solo home runs just come at the worst of times! He can't hit them in the clutch!

Right.

Should have had Rowand!

* Rolls Eyes *

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 25, 2007 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh...

forgot to mention Uribe's great defense off-seating his less then great bat.

Puh-lease.

a minus VORP like that is proof the above isn't true. Uribe's defense can't carry his offense. Just can't. Replace Uribe with a decent, unspectacular fielder and even an AVERAGE bat and you'd improve the position. Who caused the obstruction yesterday? Oh... that's right...

Ladies and Gentlemen... meet Adam Everett.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 25, 2007 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The saddest thing

is that when we bring up our best AAA prospects they can't even produce at replacement level. Unreal.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mets eye Buehrle, Contreras...

Link:

According to an official with one of the teams involved, the Mets also have asked the White Sox about former Yankees right-hander Jose Contreras, who is signed through 2009. The official, who asked not to be identified because the deals he was talking about are not done, said the Mets would be more likely to give up top minor-league talent for Contreras than they would for Buehrle.

DO IT NOW!!!

by SSH2005 on Jun 25, 2007 8:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

if that's true, it's a godsend

Some of their top prospects for Contreras would solve a lot of problems.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Kenny can get Milledge for Contreras...

and then deal Buehrle for a top pitching prospect and a good position player like a SS, 2008 will be looking a lot better.

by SSH2005 on Jun 25, 2007 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Makes sense.

Contreras will give you about the same in production that you could get from Buehrle this year.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 25, 2007 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Assuming MB goes too

that gives you a rotation next year of:

Garland
Vasquez
Danks
Floyd
????

ewwwwwwww

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

finding out if our numerous young arms (gio, egbert, broadway, floyd, danks, etc.) can pitch at the major league level. what an awful, awful scenario. why can't our pitchers just be superstars right from the start? i'm a greedy, impatient sox fan.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

what I meant is, strap in for a bumpy ride in '08

There's no quick fix on the horizon, unless we totally luck out and get a Verlander or Liriano in a trade.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

not sure how that sentiment

translates into something an obnoxious three year old says in response to vegetables.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

inside joke lar

you'be been MIA for awhile

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i just haven't posted

again, i have no idea what is so disconcerting about watching rookies/youngsters play and get better.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's not

I'd much rather see youngsters go 71-91 than shitty vets. Just don't expect a .500 team next year when we start unloading this year.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'm not going to make any pronouncements

about our team's record next year until i actually see what our team is going to be. your quibble seems to be with starting pitching and i see no reason why a basically average-ish rotation couldn't produce an average-ish record.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Garland makes a decent #1

and you can do worse than Vazquez in your #2.

It's our 3-5 that might be iffy.

Danks I can see doing alright. Floyd... uhm... who knows. #5? Who knows who that will be?

Sisco? Masset?

Please God, say no.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 25, 2007 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

don't forget, we gotta fix the bullpen too

Good luck Kenny.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gio can be a decent #5 option

by Winning is Fung on Jun 25, 2007 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Garland projects as league average

and while he may get more, he's prone to fluctuation. I'd also like to see his BB/9 drop a bit more, too, to follow with the drop in K's. Javy and Danks are probably also league average, while the other two will be somewhat (who knows how much) worse, just because they're some distance from age 25 yet. We'd be looking at a below average starting 5, but with some upside and projected improvement for '09.

by colintj on Jun 25, 2007 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Welcome back, larry

I thought all the attorneys on the site had skedaddled with Toonder to the West.

I am taking a bit of a break to knock out a test next month (yes, a great coincidence since it is eye-gouging Oedipus time to watch the Sox) but will roar back the end of July.

Heep the sardonic/rapier wit alive.

by winningugly on Jun 25, 2007 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

my guess

for the final spot would be between Broadway & Haegar. Haegar is struggling this year but he can pitch alot of innings which means less bullpen and he still has half a season to straighten things out

WHAT'S a Chuck Liddell?

by marco054 on Jun 25, 2007 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no surprise

THT doesn't like the mechances of Poreda.

"That said, I'm willing to bet on two things on Poreda with the certainty that at least one of them will occur:

He will lose his mid-90s velocity rather quickly.
He will shred his arm."

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/breaking-down-the-drafts-1st-round-picks-21-30/

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jun 25, 2007 8:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

wow

mechanics

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jun 25, 2007 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Man, I don't even want to touch this one

Not without drawing the ire of Larry and every other Porcello hater out there. I've spent my bullets on this one.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 25, 2007 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i love analysis

where the commentator readily admits that he has no idea when the video is from and maybe the guy has corrected his mechanics. but, of course, he goes on to give us a sweeping conclusion based on it. nice analysis, buddy. real helpful. sure looks like he really did his homework on this one.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

... the analysts all thought Kerry Wood and Mark Prior had great mechanics too. And they were the ones going ga-ga over Liriano too.

I think the internet has given a bunch of people an avenue to come up with wild-guess "predictions." Then when they "hit" with one, they blab about it and want to be taken seriously. But what about all of the ones that missed? Real analysts aren't bombastic about their perspectives, and they don't pull the "see, I told you so" stuff either.

One thing I think the Sox did right was going after pitchers that were hard to hit HR's off of-- namely power pitchers. BMac had that problem. I think this explains why KW loaded up on guys with lots of heat. Too bad Coop couldn't make pitchers out of them. I think the idea of looking for power pitchers vs. finesse pitchers for the Cell makes a lot of sense.

by ruffster on Jun 25, 2007 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

speaking of mechanics

Anyone see the Tigers and Andrew Miller pitching last night? I haven't seen anyone throw that severely across their body in ages.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't realize he was a #1 pick

last year. Must be nice to actually have $ to sign top prospects. Serious herky-jerky rhythm. And 95% fastballs, too.

That's what we need to do to restock our farm - suck like the Tiggers for 4-5 years in a row and then spend the money to sign the free agents and draft picks to maintain competitiveness for years to come.

Maggs looks awesome, by the way. D'ja see the hit-and-run last night he executed? I almost didn't recognize such a play - can't remember the last time we did something positive like that.

by winningugly on Jun 25, 2007 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he fell to them last year

due to signability concerns.
just like the Sox let another future ace fall to them this year.

next years slogan better be "these kids can play."

by Gus on Jun 25, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wood?

No one said Kerry Wood had perfect mechanics. It appeared that Prior did have perfect mechanics, but his arm couldn't take the wear and tear (and there was a lot of it thanks to Mr Baker).

Most of the time, I really like what Carlos Gomez has to say at THT. This time I don't, but it doesn't mean he isn't right.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jun 25, 2007 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

his mechanics changed

who knows what that was due to.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't just blame Baker

I've seen this consistantly... by the time some of these kids have finished High School they've already put in over 10 years of pitching... and in some cases an aweful lot of innings. Kind of rough on the body to have almost 20 yrs pitching when your 25. But parents will be parents.

Bad ChiSox baseball is better then having no ChiSox baseball at all

by Brush Back on Jun 25, 2007 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i don't know

check out some of those pitch counts for a 22 year old:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=priorma01&t=p&year=2003

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jun 25, 2007 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and then

check out the pitch counts of this 22 year old.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=danksjo01&t=p

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

However...

What did Little League, High School, Traveling teams have them doing??? Those are the years I'm talking about. Teams are more careful, they have an investment.
Unfortunately - that can't be measured. (At least the Little League has implemented limits starting this year with rest periods based on counts.)

Bad ChiSox baseball is better then having no ChiSox baseball at all

by Brush Back on Jun 25, 2007 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i wouldn't be all that concerned

with that stuff. maybe when we start getting to high school and college it's an issue but, before that, it's going to take quite a bit to cause long-term damage. most kids aren't throwing curves (or, more precisely, really can't) and other stressful pitches. you're hard pressed to find little leaguers who throw hard enough to actually put stress on their arms. and, these days, the vast majority of coaches and parents are very much aware of babying arms.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

just to add one thing

mechanics and not pitch counts are what one should really be concerned about. if you have bad mechanics, holding to pitch counts just delays the appearance of issues.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure I agree there

Easiest pitch to hit out of the park is a straight fastball.

You need movement to be successful, and the more you can move down in the strike zone, the better.

Garland has had great success in the Cell, but Vazquez really hasn't. Vazquez needs a big park like Petco to be successful because his stuff is straight and likely to get pounded. Granted part of the reason Vazquez can't win games is because of run support, but that's unrelated. His BB/K is marvelous, but he gives up the long ball way too much as a result of leaving straight fastballs over the plate.

The reason why Mac "suceeds" is because he throws all over the place, and hackers go up there and hack. A patient hitter can absolutely rip Mac to shreds, or draw a walk. Which has been Mac's problem this year.

IMO, Sox need more groundballers like Garland... a Derek Lowe, a Jennings, Francis, etc, and less straight gas pitchers.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 25, 2007 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

vazquez's stuff is straight?

not sure where to begin with that.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

analysis of pitcher mechanics

is probably one of the worst areas of commentary on baseball. it's esoteric and, as you allude to, not an area where agreement abounds. [let's just set aside the fact that mechanical corrections, to one degree or another, is something that is done for, i don't know, every pitcher drafted.] thus, you have a bunch of people - like ex professional baseball player carlos gomez - giving you their "professional" opinion. and, more often than not, it's worthless. this putz even has the audacity to admit that he hasn't done anywhere near the homework one would need to do to do something that could be justified as analysis. what he wrote was valueless. something like that simply doesn't belong on THT.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Glad your back, Larry. Where were you?

by ballyb on Jun 25, 2007 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

got married

went to prague for honeymoon. was reading the site at odd hours and obviously didn't watch the games or read much news so i didn't think i could add anything of value to the discussion.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

congrats!

no wonder you're in such a good mood.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

yeah congrats

we sux

by Gus on Jun 25, 2007 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What's his name?

Jeez, first Gus, now larry. Toonder's probably next. We might have a "maturing" site here.

by winningugly on Jun 25, 2007 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

congrats, congrats, congrats

another lawyer? :p

by The Wizard on Jun 25, 2007 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

nope, teacher

thanks one and all.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

prague?

I thought rio!

by The Wizard on Jun 25, 2007 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely terrible draft pick...

Gutless and cheap is no way to run a franchise. Poreda is starting in Great Falls while other college pitchers go to AA or at least high A. If this is a sign of the "new direction" then I don't have much hope of the Sox improving till a new GM is brought in.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 25, 2007 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re. Rogers article.

He says "Despite 52 sellouts and record broadcast ratings a year ago, they made only token efforts to lock up Buehrle and Jermaine Dye."

Can you imagine if they now had Dye on the payroll for 3+ more seasons at last winter's "market rate"?

Think before you write, Phil.

by ballyb on Jun 25, 2007 8:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Good luck trading JD this year

I doubt if we'd get more than a bag of balls for him. He's more valuable for the draft picks we get for losing him as a FA.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 25, 2007 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"China Doll"

way to go, Rogers. Rogers couldn't hold Pods' jockstrap. Nobody's happy about Pods being hurt-- but Rogers was out of line with that. I hope next time Rogers ends up with a medical issue people clal him a "china doll." What an a$$.

by ruffster on Jun 25, 2007 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Podsthetic is a "china doll"...

and he also sucks balls as a starting LF'er in the majors.

by SSH2005 on Jun 25, 2007 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pods needs to be a CF

his bat is too weak for a corner spot.

As a CF his bat would be an asset, but his defense would probably take a hit. I'd rather move him over to CF and sign a power LF'er.

Pods does set the table very nicely. It'd just be nice if we could get somebody in the 2 and 3 hole to do more than strikeout and walk.

Thome in the 3 hole I don't like. 50% of the time in his career he's either K'ed, Walked, or HR'ed.

That's just my take. But I like Pods leading off. Yeah you can do better, but you can do a helluva lot worse too.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 25, 2007 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sweet Georgia Brown

Pods? The man can't stay on the field and when he does he posts a .330 OBP. And that should actually be lower given all the caught stealings and pickoffs. You can do worse, by batting Erstad there. Other than that, give me anyone that can post a .340 OBP and doesn't get picked off with regularity. That caan't be thaat difficuult to find.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 25, 2007 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

AND in the outfield,

he regularly doesn't hustle AND he's got a terrible arm.

In summary. OUR CFer, no thanks.

by ballyb on Jun 25, 2007 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

1st half of '05

pods was great. since that trip to the dl in '05, i agree... inadequate LF for a contending team. He looked a little gimpy running down the line yesterday. He needs his speed to be effective, and learning to work the count and take some walks would be nice too. And learning to bunt for a hit... sheesh, little leaguers can do that.

by ruffster on Jun 25, 2007 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Congrats to Pods

for calling out the team and saying there is no intensity. I couldn't agree more.

I subjected myself to the game in person yesterday. Needless to say, it's just not much fun being at the old ballpark. And that's a shame, because I count on Sox games to provide a nice chunk of my summer "fun."

Yesterday's highlights/observations included:

A fight in Section 102, where a Cub fan was eventually escorted out to a round of applause.
A couple of guys verbally going at it behind me - Cub Fan: "The Sox are one and done!" Sox Fan: "Oh yeah? It's going to be 100 years for the Cubs! Where's YOUR World Series?"
Idiot Cub fan parents in front of me with an infant in a heavy Cubs jersey who was obviously overheating, yet they kept him out in the elements.
As I left in the top of the 8th (I didn't want to take the "ramp walk of shame" after the game), a drunk Cubs fan told me that Buehrle had been traded to the Reds. "For who?" I asked. "I don't know. It's on ESPN, they just confirmed it," he replied.

At least the Cub fan stench has left the park for another year.

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on Jun 25, 2007 9:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hindsight? Btw, they're on pace for 68 wins...

But 72 victories for a team that has averaged 95 the last two seasons? How could that be?

Well, they won 90 last year. And their Pythagorean was 88 wins. So let's start there.

Last year, four batting men on the White Sox accounted for 28 WARP1. It's true. Those men were Jermaine Dye, Joe Crede, Jim Thome, and Paul Konerko. Now, if you follow baseball at all, you might know that Dye had an insane career year, Crede performed better than he ever has, Thome bounced back from injury and put up big numbers at age 35, and Konerko -- well, Konerko stayed good and stayed healthy. PECOTA, not unreasonably, projects Dye to return to Earth, Crede to come back to his previous levels, 36-year-old Thome to be banged up, and Konerko to decline a bit at age 32.

All told, for these four guys, the 2007 WARP projection is just 15.9. 28 minus 15.9 is 12.1.

88 minus 12 is 76. So we're basically almost there already. Just with these four guys. Dye is the main culprit. At age 32, he posted an 8.5 WARP1. This is what the last six years of his career look like: 4.5, 3.4, -0.5, 2.4, 2.9, 1.9. So you can forgive PECOTA for being skeptical.

Pitching-wise, PECOTA isn't optimistic for a bounceback to 2005 levels. Mark Buehrle, for instance, is predicted to continue being 2006 Mark Buehrle, and again: pretty defensible. The man had a K/9 rate of 4.0 last year.

But, Williams was reminded, the computer says the Sox are a year older.

"Maybe we're a year better then," Williams said.

More here:
http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/03/computers-dont-have-feelings.html

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Jun 25, 2007 9:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Rogers...

The 2 things he got right in the article:

SS,LF,CF were punted going into this year. A decent SS is hard to find. But LF and CF should have been possible to address.
The Sox hate draft picks. Declining to offer arbitration to players (Ordonez, and Riske especially where there was no risk) to avoid paying for draft picks is not a way to build a strong system.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 25, 2007 9:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I might actually start going again in Aug/Sep....

to watch Fields, Floyd, Broadway, Richar and the others we acquire through the fire-sale.

by stanchar on Jun 25, 2007 9:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

september

will be the time to go. expanded roster. not summer anymore so less people would go anyway. even less because the team is out of contention. it will be like the good old days at comiskey when you'd purchase cheap seats and then just sit behind homeplate.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It sounds sick but...

I kind of miss those days!

by RustyJ on Jun 25, 2007 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah....I have two uppers and two lowers....

love the two uppers because I can sit in $45 seats for $11....

by stanchar on Jun 25, 2007 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can sit in $45 seats for $11....

What does this mean?

by ballyb on Jun 25, 2007 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

For regular games....

my upper deck reserved seats are $11/ticket...and because you get lower access with these it's pretty easy to find two open seats in Premium Lower Box which I think are about $45/ticket.

by stanchar on Jun 25, 2007 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Got it.

by ballyb on Jun 25, 2007 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

late July and September

To see Frank Thomas, but then September should be good.
The Sox will probably decide the division since they have a ton of games vs Cleveland, Detroit, and even Minnesota down the stretch.

funny stuff from "Inside the White Sox" Riefert yesterday:
'Reporters were looking for answers that aren't there yet. There are too many games still to be played. We still have to hold out hope that this team will start playing better. We've got weeks, not months, left to prove it. You maybe could argue we have days, not weeks.'

You also could argue that its been over for a month. Remeber that whole 'the next 20 games thing' about 25 games and 20 losses ago?

we sux

by Gus on Jun 25, 2007 10:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

for those interested

BTB's mike pindelski has analysis of the potential MB trade scenarios/partners.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2007/6/25/01540/0698

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

i think keith

would really like the floated MB for ichiro, straight up proposal.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What does that get us?

Not like Ichiro is then going to give us a home team discount. Worst move possible (maybe not worst, but not good).

by ballyb on Jun 25, 2007 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh i think it's a pretty bad idea

it's just we have our resident ichiro lovers to placate.

the only thing it really gets you is exclusive negotiating rights until the free agent date. or, better, you can negotiate an extension before trading for him.

obviously i and everyone else would like to get prospects of value. and that seems to be what is on offer for MB right now. assuming that doesn't change, bad idea.

by larry on Jun 25, 2007 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs