Why shouldn't the White Sox be unloading players?

by The Cheat on Jun 6, 2007 11:25 PM CDT in White Sox Game Recaps

I a recent article, Kenny Williams insisted that he wasn't about to give up on the season, trading departing veterans for up-and-coming prospects or young impact players. Why?

I've never seen the White Sox so lifeless for such an extended period of time. In the last 15 days, they've won 3 games, averaging 3.15 runs/game with a collective batting line of .232/.295/.324. That included a well publicized week-long stretch during which they collected just one hit off of opposing relievers, a stat made all the worse when it's noted that twice they saw 6 innings of an opponents bullpen in one game.

During that stretch... (hitters -- pitchers)

White Sox catchers hit .191/.224/.213 with 4 GIDPs
White Sox third basemen hit .174/.204/.261
White Sox center fielders hit .173/.189/.269
White Sox second basemen had zero extra base hits, or one less than White Sox right fielders, or three less than White Sox DH's.
White Sox batters hit 23 extra-base hits, while their opponents hit 42.
Opponents outscored the Sox 79-41.
White Sox batters hit .131/.212/.197 off of opposing relievers.'

It's a good thing Greg Walker is "one of the best hitting coaches in baseball." If he wasn't, the Sox would be in some real trouble.

This isn't just an isolated two-week stretch either. I could expand the dates and go on listing disgusting stats ad nauseam. For all of our sakes, I'm going to refrain from that self-destructive behavior.

* * * * *

Tuesday's game was just another in a long line of woefully lackluster performances. Chien-Ming Wang held the Sox to just 5 hits, all singles, with the Sox offensive highlight coming on a groundout.

Josh Fields was impatient in his 2007 debut, seeing only 8 pitches in his three at-bats. Of course, he was not alone against Wang, as the Sox averaged just 3.3 pitches per plate appearance. I was particularly disappointed in Fields though. In his lone at-bat in which he cracked the 3-pitch barrier, he reached for ball 4 on a 3-1 count, grounding out routinely to Derek Jeter. Normally, I'd be happy that he was putting the ball in play, but against Wang, that's not too difficult and it's exactly what he wants you to do.

The Sox have one more game with the Yanks tomorrow before they get to look respectable against the National League for 2 weeks. If they somehow manage to lose more than they win against the Astros, Phillies, Marlins, Pirates, and Cubs, there will be no way for the front office to deny that it's time to get some new, young talent into the organization. At least we've got the draft tomorrow. There will be some new blood in the organization one way or another.

* * * * *

Sounds like Crede really was hurting for longer than we were aware. It sounds like he'll at least require a "small incision in which fluid is sucked out" of his herniated back that would require about 2 months out of the line-up, and could require a true disc surgery that would keep him out for the rest of the season, presumably ending his White Sox career.

Though at that point, what could you get for Crede through a trade? It would either be non-tender time or Fields in LF or Charlotte.

Tweet Comment 58 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

Do I root for or against the Sox now?

I'm still clinging (barely) to the hope that the Sox can magically put things together and make a serious run at the playoffs, but as the season progresses and the offense continues to suck and the bullpen continues to blow that hope is looking more and more like a dream.

So do I root for the Sox to win some games and hope that KW has the sense to jettison off some of the aging vets?

do I just flat out root for a flop so that KW has no choice but to trade off some parts?

If the Sox can't hack it against those lightweight teams, lightweight, even by NL standards then I think I may have to officially give up hope. We'll see though

-Jeeves Life in the Cell, a Sweet Home Sports site

by jeeves on Jun 7, 2007 12:58 AM CDT reply actions

Not quitting

I'm not giving up until after the all star break, the way I see it we should not ose any series to the Interleague teams the rest of the way, and I'm hoping were 5 over at the break.

However, as much as I don't like to say this, Joe Crede has to be the biggest flop, and I have no problem never having a Boras player in my life. I except that he got hurt last year, and thats why he stunk the entire season, but this season he is my main priority to not be around for 2008. I'm tired of waiting for the moment with Hawk and DJ, this guy is the Mark Prior of the team.

Anyways, I was just wondering what teams people wouldn't mind being sellers with if the ship fills up with any more water?

Yanks, Red Sox, Brewers, NL west, Mets, Braves, Angles, maybe catch the Mariners thinking their still in

by tubesox on Jun 7, 2007 1:20 AM CDT reply actions

Crede in Sept 2006

is what I meant, not the entire year

by tubesox on Jun 7, 2007 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions

Crede "stunk" in '06?!

HUH?

What are you talking about? He had career bests in HR, R, RBI, OBP and OPS... and tied his career best for 2B. His AVG and SLG were only slightly behind his '02 numbers, but he only had 200 AB that season. For the record, his '06 line:
150 G, 544 AB, 76 R, 154 H, 31 2B, 30 HR, 94 RBI, 28 BB, 58 K, .283/.323/.506/.828

If you think '06 Crede "stunk," I'd love to hear what you think about '07 Crede, or the '07 Sox in general.

by mjthor on Jun 7, 2007 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions

Oh, didn't read your reply

to yourself before I posted. Disregard what I said.

by mjthor on Jun 7, 2007 2:12 AM CDT up reply actions

Dye has to go. Period.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 7, 2007 5:51 AM CDT reply actions

Time to evaluate Konerko's value

I think he'd get back more value than any other offensive player on the team. He's better than his current numbers, and hopefully other GMs think so as well.

by asinwreck on Jun 7, 2007 7:14 AM CDT reply actions

Not Konerko

He can easily slide into the DH role when Thome leaves, and is one of the "faces" of the organization. I doubt he would be moved.

KW is going to be shrewd about these moves and make them seem more like regular moves than firesale actions.

It is amazing how fast a WS team can fall apart so fast. 82-82 looks like a stretch at this point.

by RME JICO on Jun 7, 2007 7:39 AM CDT up reply actions

82-82?

It's not bad enough that the Sox have had a slew of rainouts this year that will leave them with precious few days off the rest of the season -- now you want them to play two extra games???? :)

Stretch!

by stevegoz on Jun 7, 2007 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions

Protest, start the season over.

by ballyb on Jun 7, 2007 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions

Ha, good catch

was going to say 80-82.

by RME JICO on Jun 7, 2007 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions

Pauly is one of the few players

I wouldnt want to trade at all. Hes slower than an old lady with a walker but God I love seeing him jog his way home after belting one. Oh Captain My Captain.

by omnipotent grab on Jun 7, 2007 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions

Who will pay

the most for Dye between now and the trade deadline?

What, realistically, is that trade going to get us?

by ballyb on Jun 7, 2007 8:17 AM CDT reply actions

Can we get rid of Greg Walker now

if only to get our numbers up more so we can a better return on our trades?

Have you ever seen a team collectively bat so far below their career numbers this late in the season, and the hitting coach keep his job?

If Greg Walker's not the first to go, there is no justice in this land promoted by the South Side Board of Tourism.

by chrome on Jun 7, 2007 8:55 AM CDT reply actions

I was there last night

and "lifeless" is a good word to describe what I witnessed. I never thought for a nano-second that they had any chance of a comeback.

What was with JD doing he best Aaron Rowand (drink!) impression? Diving, crashing into walls...resulting in zero catches.

I heard the game also described as a "funeral" on sports radio this morning. Let's get creative, combine the two and go with a "lifeless funeral" - that pretty much nails it.

And I'd like to reiterate my previous comment that Crede was completely selfish in his decision to not get his back properly repaired in the off season. His actions have only added gas on the fire of a collapsing former World Champion.

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on Jun 7, 2007 8:55 AM CDT reply actions

Agreed

And I said the same thing about Crede weeks ago when it was first reported his back was bothering him and he put off surgery.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 7, 2007 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions

Surgery...

I don't think his decision was selfish at all. 80-90% of all herniated discs respond to conservative treatment (pain relief and exercise), and should be tried before invasive treatment. This is especially true if the surgery is anything more radical that microdiscectomy. Those options have a lower success rate, and would be (potentially) more likely to end his career.

Yeah, I'd have liked to see the micro done last off-season too. But the selfishness is on my part and yours: we want the Sox back in the World Series, and Crede's decision is helping cost us that chance.

Other than that, I picked a hell of a week to go on the wagon. The game thread looked like fun!

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Jun 7, 2007 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions

80-90% of all herniated discs?

Just curious what the % is for professional athletes.

by ballyb on Jun 7, 2007 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions

Don't have a clue re pro athletes...

The 80-90% applies across the board. Though I seem to recall Dr. Herm agreeing with JC's decision, or at least saying something like "I don't blame him".

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Jun 7, 2007 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions

Herm:

Schneider said that Crede met with a doctor, and after having conversations with general manager Ken Williams, they collectively decided that the non-surgical path would be best.

"They came to the conclusion that he's going to do a real intense six- to eight-week conditioning program and then we'll see from there," Schneider said. "I don't see a problem with it as long as it's done and he gets better from it. No one wants him to have surgery."

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Jun 7, 2007 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions

More Herm:

Schneider explained how White Sox general manager Ken Williams also was involved in the ultimate decision-making process with Crede, and added Crede should be fine if he puts in the work and follows the program. In a statement via e-mail, though, Williams said he played no role in the decision and that it was a player and agent decision after consulting with doctors.

Williams also is happy Crede doesn't need surgery.

"Hopefully, he doesn't need surgery because nobody wants him to have surgery," said Schneider. "But you are going to the same endpoint either way. It just depends on what route you take.

"If you don't do the rehab work, then you need the surgery. If you do the surgery, then you don't need the work. [Players] have to be responsible to do what they are asked to do for their career.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it," Schneider added. "Joe is doing fine, but he has to do the program. He still has to wait until he partakes in baseball drills to see if that all pays off for him. If he does what he's supposed to do, he'll do just fine."

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Jun 7, 2007 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions

Also

didn't it say before that these were degenerative discs anyway? With multiple herniated discs and degeneration, this guy seems to be toast.

KW didn't move him in the offseason, but at least he didn't sign him to a long term deal. KW might not have been able to move him if other teams had concerns about his health.

by RME JICO on Jun 7, 2007 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions

I'd agree

I herniated a disc in 2001, and I had a doctor tell me he could either operate, or we could do conservative treatment. We opted the conservative route, and while the disc healed with PT, ice and Celebrex, it will never be perfect. But because I sit at a desk all day and lay around on my ass all night, I'm not putting any strain on it, so there's not much chance I'm going to be unable to deal with the occasional flare-up.

On the other hand, Joe Crede is a professional athlete who has to play every day. The strain of swinging a bat, making explosive moves on defense, and running on a bad back says you can't ever opt for a conservative route and "hope" it gets better with "treatment," because it's a one step forward, two steps back situation. Surgery might not be the ultimate fix, but it's obvious the situation isn't going to improve otherwise.

Now his value is going in the crapper because he can't play, everyone knows his back is the problem, and it's not only hurting him, it's hurting the team. For shame, Joe Crede. For shame.

"Looks like the joke's on us, doesn't it?"

by Happy Felsch on Jun 7, 2007 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions

of course it was selfish

you know, i'm willing to go pretty far when i'm on a team. but getting back surgery on a disc? yeah, i can see the reticence. back surgery usually just papers over the problem for a few years until they have to go in and do it again. sometimes it doesn't do anything the first time and they have to go in and do it over a few months later.

this surgery isn't like some where the doctor waves his scalpel and the problem is magically gone forever. he's got this for life. playing the surgery card this early will likely result in shortening his overall career.

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions

What funeral have you attended

that is full of life? The person in the casket is usually dead.

Just like our offense, baserunning, fielding, and middle relief. Perhaps this should be "stretched" to include "management".

I was still slightly drunk last year after 2005 but it sure has worn off quickly this year.

by winningugly on Jun 7, 2007 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions

you've never been

to a "celebration" funeral. that shit is full of life. loud music, movies, food, mariachi band.

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions

New Orleans? Irish? Italian (where

fights break out).

I was commenting from the perspective of the person in the casket (aka Pale Hose) and not the mourners (us).

I'm still disappointed you have not taken out a coach, or at least a mailman.

by winningugly on Jun 7, 2007 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions

I came to the realization yesterday...

That this team is not making the playoffs.

And no, this is not your typical "Oh woe is me, this team blows, Walker should be fired, our bullpen sucks, Kenny did this or that when he should've done this or that... our hitting sucks... blah blah blah" rant.

While the other stuff is probably true, I have other evidence to back up my statement.

Want to know what it is?

2/3 of our starting outfield consists of a utility retread in Rob Mackowiak, who wasn't good enough for the Pirates to keep, and a AAAA speedster who can't hit out of the infield and has a questionable arm, known as Jerry Owens.

That's it. Our starting outfielders are Jerry Owens, Rob Mackowiak, Jermaine Dye, and it's June!

Throw in the fact that Josh Fields is now our third baseman, our bullpen is mostly AAA, and there you have it.

If a fan of another team came up to you, not knowing about this Sox team, and said "You think you guys are going to the playoffs this year?" and you replied "Sure." This other fan asks "Well, who is starting for your team?" To which you reply, "Jerry Owens, Rob Mackowiak, Josh Fields, etc" ...

You know what that person will do? He will laugh in your face, and walk away.

Take it from someone else's perspective.

This team will struggle to break .500. And that, my friends, will not get us a wild card berth.

It's that simple. We aren't going to the playoffs. Why? Our outfielders are Rob Mackowiak and Jerry Owens. Our bullpen is AAA. Prinz, Day, Bukvich, the list goes on. Our players on the DL are Scott Podsednik and Darrin Erstad. No hope there.

I've said before that I would hold out hope until we are mathematically eliminated, and well, I'm being realistic now. That day is coming sooner rather than later. My expectations have been drastically lowered.

Owens. Mackowiak. Fields. Prinz. Day. Bukvich. Cintron. Hall.

These are your middle of the pack 2007 White Sox.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 7, 2007 9:33 AM CDT reply actions

Or has been stated numerous times:

"A team of spare parts".

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Jun 7, 2007 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions

Remember how angry

we would get at the Sunday line-ups last year?

We've seen a Sunday line-up every game of the 2007 season. Let's face it. The hitting has got to improve at some point, but even when a few guys (I'm especially looking at your Konerko) pull it together, this team still won't be very good.

by chrome on Jun 7, 2007 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions

Morrissey said it best

"Everyday Is Like Sunday."

Stretch!

by stevegoz on Jun 7, 2007 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions

Josh Fields...

had better not be in Charlotte next year. If Crede is really ready to go (IOW, not playing through pain like he tried this year) and the team wants to bring him back, I could deal with Fields in left. But a third tour at Charlotte isn't going to help Fields any, and they could use the cheap position player. It's going to be expensive enough to field even a mediocre team next year, they don't need to make it more expensive by having to go out and spend 5-10 million on another mediocre veteran.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jun 7, 2007 10:53 AM CDT reply actions

Josh Fields is our starting 3B now

Crede is done being a starting 3B. At the most he will come back and be a utility/defensive replacement or DH type player. The season is too long of a grind (no pun intended) on the back for someone with his health issues. The only way around that is to not play everyday.

Fields is getting his feet wet this year with the team already out of the playoff picture. There shouldn't be that much pressure on him to produce 2007 Crede-like numbers.

by RME JICO on Jun 7, 2007 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions

I hope...

you're right, not about the end of Crede's usefulness (I still wish him the best), but that Fields is now the starting 3B going forward.

I still feel that the team should think carefully before bringing Crede back, even for 2008.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jun 7, 2007 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions

Crede in 2006

Crede was .179 in Sept/Oct and greatly effected his numbers, as he was .294 in the first half and .270 the 2nd half. Back surgery is very problematic and I would not do it years ago and have functioned excellently having run 5 miles daily for 25 years and played basketball. golf,all my life through daily back exercises that take 10 minutes per day given me by my Orthopedic surgeon who would not do surgery until I had given these exercises a good trial.

by Florida Jim on Jun 7, 2007 11:06 AM CDT reply actions

Thome, Konerko and A.J. are the only regulars...

I would keep. Rotation keep Garland, Vaz and Danks.

The rest should all be gone before next season for YOUNG players. Sign a quality F.A. for 2nd base.

by White Sox Randy on Jun 7, 2007 11:31 AM CDT reply actions

I think...

The Sox are stuck with Contreras, too, at least through 2008. I think he's got a no-trade, and teams won't want to give up much for him, anyway. Not that I mind Contreras, so much.

If Buehrle isn't traded before July 31, the Sox will likely let him walk and try to find a younger replacement, but otherwise the rotation will be the same.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jun 7, 2007 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions

no trade is only through 2007

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions

How was this team constructed?

Now that the season is going down the tubes fast, you have to question everything:

Why do we have 20% of the payroll locked up in long-term deals tied up at 1B and DH? I can see one of these, but both? These are two of the easier positions to make a quick fix on - look at Oakland, last year they're able to pick up Frank cheap and this year Piazza cheap. Piazza goes on the DL and they plug in a Jack Cust. There's plenty of guys floating around baseball who can hit but can't play a position.

What really bugs me is that Oakland has had even worse luck than we have with injuries this year, but their GM is able to go out and find pieces to fix their problems while working with half of our budget. They've got flexibility, we have none. KW has really painted himself into a corner.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 7, 2007 12:24 PM CDT reply actions

they say

that "risk" is the new inefficiency. and, once again, they point to oakland for it. basically, they sign a whole bunch of cheap players for a given position like outfield who have some risk about them - usually injury - in the belief that a + b + c + d is greater than signing simply e + f for the same amount of money.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-new-inefficiency/

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions

I guess

Drives me crazy to see OAK getting hot with half their roster on the DL while we go down the tubes. Beane was making moves like crazy as soon as things went down, KW has sat on his hands the entire season.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 7, 2007 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions

it is

an interesting philosophy over there in oakland. the thing is, though, that team really sucks offensively. maybe they would suck as bad as us without these moves but i'm not going to necessarily say beane is a genius for his roster construction, either. they're being saved by their pitching, plain and simple.

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions

Beane had a contingency plan for injuries,

and we didn't.

It's not as if it's a shocker that Podstad, Thome & Crede would be injured at some point.

by ChicagoPete on Jun 7, 2007 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions

looks to me

like he really didn't. that lineup had so many holes at the start of the season and it's only gotten worse. he's bailing water on a sinking ship. it's cute that he's gone out and acquired players but it's pissing in the wind. they need way more than jack "this year's chris shelton" cust and snelling. the only reason they're still in the hunt is because they're in the al west and have excellent pitching. if anything, beane's inability to field a decent offensive team from the start is even more inexcusable than KW's becuase of the division they play in.

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions

On the other hand...

Billy Beane only has about a third of the resources that Ken Williams has to work with.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jun 7, 2007 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions

that's a little hyperbolic, jer

if i recall correctly, their payroll is approaching $80 million this year.

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions

$79,366,940, to be exact

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/oakland-athletics.html

But don't let that stop the usual Billy Beane fellating.

by Winning is Fung on Jun 7, 2007 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm not...

fellating Billy Beane. I acknowledge his shortcomings (that Jason Kendall contract is laughable, especially on that team). But to say that Williams has more of an excuse for not having a backup plan for when all his injury-prone players went down? I don't agree.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jun 7, 2007 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions

jerry

we didn't have much of a chance for the playoffs at the start of the year. you've said the same on here. shuffling in jack cust or langerhans or snelling isn't going to fix our problems. even if thome et al don't go down or are backed up by somewhat legitimate players where does that leave us? a few less games back? the tigers and indians are superior teams. there's no need for us to have pissed away more money in an effort to get to 90 wins. the marginal utility of us adding a few million in payroll is nil. for billy beane, much better. and, just like us, he could have spent the money he already has committed much better.

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions

Put that way...

it makes sense. I agree that Williams shouldn't have spent a bunch of money on what was sure to be a losing cause.

The only thing I really disagree with that he did this winter was bringing back Podsednik. There was no point to that.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jun 7, 2007 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions

that goes without saying

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions

yeah

i love billy beane - i think most of us on here do. but he's not immune from criticism from me. he screwed up this year. if having a back-up plan is frantically trying to shore up a roster in the first month and a half then i don't really want to know what the primary plan was. the point was made about pods, erstad, thome, crede and so on. well what about kendall, piazza, stewart, and so on?

i guess you can give props to beane because being in the division he's in he's got a hell of a lot more room for error than we do - and he's used just about all of that room. but i wouldn't want KW out there trading just to shore up our roster when we weren't likely to get a playoff spot even in a best-case year for our team.

by larry on Jun 7, 2007 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions

"Love"?

You are taking this stuff WAY too seriously, lar. Get a chick, pronto, and get some REAL love - preferably for less than $100. I would say I "admire BB's GM skill-set" or "covet his eye for talent".

"Love"?

I am SO worried about you. In light of your repressed seething hiostility as you described last night I am concerned you will pull an Edward Norton in "X".

by winningugly on Jun 7, 2007 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions