Captain Hand declares mission failed

by The Wizard on Jul 22, 2007 7:24 PM CDT in Quotes Comment 72 comments

Ozzie when asked, yesterday, if the team can make a run:

"Right now, July 21, nope. Nope. I don't see it," said Guillen, when asked Saturday if his team has what it takes to put together a sustained victory run to legitimately chase Detroit, Cleveland and Minnesota. "It's going to be tough. You have to be honest, because we are facing pretty good ballclubs, guys fighting for first place. To make a run, we have to be perfect every day. And I don't see us being perfect every day. We cannot make anything against us, because we will pay."

Today Ozzie said he only meant that the team has no room for error:

Guillen went on to clarify his point Sunday morning. It's not that the White Sox weren't trying to win, or that he was giving up, but in the troublesome situation they currently reside, there's little room for error with a team who makes far too many contributions to its own defeats.

"You ask those [players], and we're a fighter that's still standing, but we can't get knocked down once. We have to be up for two months. That's what I expect. That's what I want. But we continue like [the 11-game road trip], and sorry guys, it ain't going to happen."

Garland's take? The team lacks agressiveness:

Sticking with Guillen's fighter metaphor, the White Sox currently are receiving their second or third standing-eight count, and the referee is about two ticks away from declaring this season-long bout a knockout. By Garland's estimation, though, the South Siders still lack the aggressiveness to get back into the fight.

"Honestly, I don't think we've been attacking the game. We've been sitting back and letting things happen to us instead of going out and making them happen. Once you start heading the way we've headed, and things aren't going your way, or you do the right things and they still don't go your way, it's tough to grind it out. We just have to let it go and prepare for the next day."

Tough to grind it out? But Kenny went out and got the ultimate grinder.

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lack aggressiveness?

good one, jon. i'm sure some numbnut columnist will pick up on that quote and rehash a column about "fire" and "grinding."

Free Ehren Wasserman!

by larry on Jul 22, 2007 7:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Jon's interviews

He has a history of not being media-savvy. I say deal him! Bring someone in here who knows his cliches.

by hitlesswonder on Jul 22, 2007 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Haeger to start Tuesday?

whitesox.com says he's scheduled to start the 2nd game of tuesday's DH but after today's 3+ IP who knows...

by The Wizard on Jul 22, 2007 7:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

willie harris defies gravity!

by The Wizard on Jul 22, 2007 8:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

OZZIE

Ozzie said that the fans are angry and dissappointed. Boy is that an understatement!!!
We are pissed beyond belief. And Ozzie, quit defending our wonder boy GM. he is 95% to blame for this fiasco. I could just puke when I see all of our former players hitting .300, and the assholes we got for them are hitting at the Mendoza line. I hope they don't win another game,because if you can't finish first you might as well get the top draft choices (like Detroit did)

by BIG KLU on Jul 22, 2007 8:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

well, detroit was at #6

and picked what was described as the #1

do you think guys, that can happen with us and pedro alvarez, if we don't get the #1 pick?

by The Wizard on Jul 22, 2007 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Depends on the agent

Since the Sox have an issue with a select agent... and he usually holds some of the best prosepects

White Sox baseball, let the kids learn to play

by Brush Back on Jul 22, 2007 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

hopefully they realize what these players'

value is and decide to get on that train. i would hate to see a guy like Alvarez go down the drain just because of a particular way in which we are not prepared to deal. ESPECIALLY because Alvarez represents a young power bat, something i don't see us getting anytime soon unless chris carter works out. but he's in kanny. alvarez could debut higher than that level.

that's actually another thing that really gets me. why don't we promote prospects that are obviously advanced for the levels at which they are playing? Carter, Egbert and Gio are dominant and should be put in a position that will help them get to the big leagues soon with the needs we have. but i checked a bunch of our old prospects, like borchard, fields, crede etc. and none of them got mid-year promotions. it's weird.

by colintj on Jul 22, 2007 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

oops

forgot DLS. he's dominant too.

by colintj on Jul 22, 2007 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

roy hobbs on AMC

by The Wizard on Jul 22, 2007 8:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Filmed in War Memorial Stadium

In Buffalo IIRC. The Sox had their AAA team there at he time I think...

by hitlesswonder on Jul 22, 2007 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dinner Impossible

At the Cell and on Food Network right now

White Sox baseball, let the kids learn to play

by Brush Back on Jul 22, 2007 9:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

there's a repeat on midnight

and some more

by The Wizard on Jul 22, 2007 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

masset started for the knights today

masset*: 2.1 IP, 4 H, 4 R, 3 ER, 1 HR, 1 K, 2 BB, 6.23 ERA

don't worry, "there's more in there"

by The Wizard on Jul 22, 2007 9:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Change his cuisine!

The Food Network post got me thinking, maybe Masset needs to switch to a diet heavy on Mexican food (or at least Tex-Mex) to try to recapture the stuff he had in the Mexican League.

by hitlesswonder on Jul 22, 2007 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, crazy...

"Minor league coach dies after being hit by line drive"

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 7:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

has two young kids and another arriving in Oct.

terrible. he was just hired a couple weeks ago, too. goes to show that you need to pay attention to the game and have quick reflexes if you are close to the action - let alone on the field.

Free Ehren Wasserman!

by larry on Jul 23, 2007 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ken Rosenthal says teams still interested in Dye..

Link:

White Sox outfielder Jermaine Dye, 13-for-42 with four homers since the All-Star break, appears a good bet to be traded; he can veto deals to only four clubs, and the interest in him is rising. The Indians and Red Sox are among the teams that have inquired, and the Angels and Cubs also would be logical fits. The White Sox aren't afraid to trade Dye within the division or to their cross-town rival, but according to one club they are looking for an elite prospect in return . . .

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 7:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Gavin Floyd to start Tuesday...

"Garland's failure alters rotation
Overworked Haeger won't start Tuesday; Floyd may get nod"

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 7:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

great

... we get to watch floyd get creamed again. i guess KW doesn't want to start the major-league clock on anybody else yet.

by ruffster on Jul 23, 2007 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

let's just give up on a guy after one start. that's a real smart way to run a baseball team. we need to win games now!

Free Ehren Wasserman!

by larry on Jul 23, 2007 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Floyd = one of our "kids", right?

Let the kids play and see wha we have. Like Red said in The Natural, "Well, we sure need SOMEBODY!"

If he gets clocked it's no worse than Contreras. He's gonna have to get into the mix at some point.

I'll be dead before all of you

by winningugly on Jul 23, 2007 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would rather see Floyd

get ravaged over Contreras slowly dying on the mound any day of the week.

Using Contreras out of the bullpen is an experiment I would be happy with. Any Floyd will likely improve every time he goes out there. The only question is does Floyd have the mental toughness to succeed in the Bigs.

by omnipotent grab on Jul 23, 2007 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Floyd*

by omnipotent grab on Jul 23, 2007 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

an experiment that'd make more sense

if we weren't so damn awful

by colintj on Jul 23, 2007 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Make a run?

How about:

Staying out of last place
End up at .500 (or better)
See what the kids can do
Make a move to improve the bullpen
Make a move to improve the outfield
Free Juan Uribe

These goals are lofty enough for 2007. Don't insult our intelligence with "making a run" pipe dreams.

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on Jul 23, 2007 9:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I just saw this post at WSI...

"Buster Olney was on ESPN Radio's Baseball show this afternoon and claimed that Peter Gammons told him that the Braves offered Edgar Renteria to the Sox for Jon Garland and that the Sox declined... Granted, this appears to be coming from Gammons but it is an interesting idea..."

Interesting.

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 9:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

A 31 year old SS

for a 27 year old SP?

by ballyb on Jul 23, 2007 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yuniel Escobar

Escobar + another prospect for Garland.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jul 23, 2007 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting trade...

because it would improve both teams. The Braves obviously want to replace Renteria with the much cheaper and still productive Yunel Escobar and use Renteria's salary on Garland. We would be getting a great replacement for Juan Urine at SS. Unfortunately, Renteria is getting older and he is very expensive but he is probably still worth the money.

Renteria is earning $9 million this season, $9 million in 2008, and has a $11 million team option or a $3 million buyout for 2009.

The reason this trade makes no sense for us is because we are obviously rebuilding. We need to acquire Yunel Escobar, not Edgar Renteria.

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

mlbtraderumors

reports it as well (same sourec, Gammons). They also predict the Sox make a run at Omar Vizquel in the offseason if no SS is acquired via trade. If the Sox do that, I'm just going to do my best to ignore them in 2008. That would be a pointless acquisition.

by hitlesswonder on Jul 23, 2007 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's not going to happen.

Vizquel is a Boras client, in fact the Boras client who finally soured Williams on Boras clients.

Williams wasn't interested in Vizquel's 2008 season. Why would he be interested in his 2009 season?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jul 23, 2007 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please no Vizquel...

I'd rather try Richar at SS than sign a 50 year old SS to a one year deal. There's no upside or point to it.

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Make a run?

If Cleveland plays .500 ball the rest of the season, they win 90 games. For the Sox to win 90 games, they need 47 wins, a .723 pace from here on in.

Make a run? Ha ha ha ha ha.

by ballyb on Jul 23, 2007 9:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't understand...

why anyone even asked that question. What sentient human being can look at the 2007 White Sox and think they can "make a run"? What a colossally stupid question.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jul 23, 2007 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Renteria?

Isn't that the stomach ailment Brian Anderson suffered from while playing winter ball in the DR?

President - Johnny Dickshot Fan Club

by tailgater on Jul 23, 2007 10:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

At mad as I am about 2007

... I am glad KW hasn't made any stupid trades so far. I remember everybody wanted us to dump Crede before the deadline in '05. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.

I know this team needs some work. But I'd rather make no trades and get the draft picks on guys who walk, than make stupid trades that don't help us.

by ruffster on Jul 23, 2007 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, not trading Crede...

at the deadline or during the offseason last year was a bad move. I don't really blame Kenny for this but he did know that Crede has been having back issues for the past couple seasons.

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If even he wanted

I really don't think there is that much interest outside the starters (except the one we'd like to get rid of) and Jenks. And at that, who know whats being offered. (But I'm on the outside, so who knows - KW may still think they can make a run this year)

White Sox baseball, let the kids learn to play

by Brush Back on Jul 23, 2007 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Torres' suitors shop Pena...

Link:

The Boston Red Sox, the team seen as most interested in reliever Salomon Torres, is actively shopping enigmatic outfielder Wily Mo Pena.

Pena has exceptional power, with 66 career home runs at age 25, but is batting .202 and has struck out 12 times in his past 17 at-bats. He is making $1.8 million.

Now I'm no Wily Mo Pena fan but if all he costs is a crappy reliever with a 5.12 ERA, send the Red Sox one of our bum bullpen arms for him. We need outfielders for next season and I would take a flier on Pena if the only cost is a crappy reliever.

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 10:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm in the minority

But I wouldn't mind a player like Pena in LF next season. He's cheap, young, and can provide som power lost when Dye leaves (and help balance Erstad and Sweeney's alarming lack of oomph). Also, it's not like bad d in LF will be anything new. Pena's had 3 or so .800 OPS seasons with no OBP but lots of power. Ideally, getting him would also mean getting a high OBP player at SS, 2B or CF but apparently that won't happen while Ozzie is manager.

The downside is that I'm not sure if Pena is signed beyond 2008 and I don't know what it would cost the Sox. If it's MacDougal, forget it.

by hitlesswonder on Jul 23, 2007 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd take Pena

People concentrate on what he can't do, but he is young and has tons of power. He could do quite well at US Cell.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Jul 23, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't give up MacDougal for Pena either...

he could easily bounce back and post some solid bullpen numbers next season.

The problem is that we don't have any crappy relievers with "name status" whom Boston would want over Torres. They would probably take Aardsma for Pena but I wouldn't want to give him up either. And the Red Sox aren't going to take Bukvich over Torres.

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thornton

The Red Sox are interested in Damaso Marte -- Thorton might interest them as well.

If Pena is a FA in 2009, then the only reason to acquire him would be to have him inflate his stats in the Cell and flip him next season. I wouldn't trade Thornton for that.

by hitlesswonder on Jul 23, 2007 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't give up Thornton either...

for one year of Wily Mo Pena. Thornton is a lefty who can throw 96 MPH and he is locked up to a dirt-cheap contract for up to 4 more years. If we trade him, we are left with Boone Logan as our only lefty reliever. No thanks.

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pena is a free agent after 2008...

That and the fact that he is sucking hardcore this season are the reasons that his trade value is so low.

by SSH2005 on Jul 23, 2007 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

if that's the cost, then i agree with you.

throw them aardsma or maybe even thornton

by colintj on Jul 23, 2007 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

from 1967 to 1972

I did some research once on how the 67 team turned into the 72 team. it's kind of interesting to see how things happened.

John Buzhardt- sold to the Orioles during the'67 season.

J.C. Martin- after '67, sent to Mets in the Boyer/Alomar trade. Boyer was released. Alomar was traded with Gerry Priddy for Bobby Knoop. Knoop was traded for cash and Luis Alcaraz, who never pitched again.

Don Buford, Bruce Howard- after '67, traded w/ Roger Nelson to Orioles for Luis Aparicio, Russ Snyder, John Matias. Aparicio was traded after '70 to Red Sox for Mike Andrews and Luis Alvarado. Snyder was traded in '68 for Leon Wagner, who was released by the Sox in '69. Matias was traded with Gail Hopkins to the Royals for Pat Kelly and Don O'Reilly.

Tommie Agee- in '67 traded with Al Weis to the Mets for Tommy Davis, Jack Fisher, Billy Wynne and Buddy Booker. Davis was drafted by Seattle in the '69 expansion draft. Fisher was traded in '68 to the Reds for Don Pavletich and Don Secrist. Pavletich was traded with Gary Peters in '69 for Syd O'Brien and Jerry Janeski. O'Brien and Wynne later went to the Angels in the Berry trade. Janeski was traded in '71 to the Senators for Rick Reichardt. Secrist pitched for 2 years for the Sox and never pitched again. Booker played 5 games for the Sox in '68 and never played again.

Jim O'Toole- retired after '67 season

Rocky Colavito- sold to the Dodgers before '68.
Ken Boyer- Released in '68.
Wayne Causey- traded in '68 for Woodie Held. Held was released by the Sox in '69.
Ron Hansen- traded with others in '68 to the Senators for Tim Cullen and others, then traded back for Cullen later in '68. Eventually purchased by the Yankees in '70.
Don McMahon- traded in '68 to tigers for Dennis Ribant. Tigers purchased Ribant back later that season.

Jerry McNertney- drafted by Seattle in the '68 expansion draft.
Hoyt Wilhelm- drafted by Royals in '68 expansion draft.

Bob Locker- traded in '69 to seattle for Gary Bell. Bell was released later that year.
Pete Ward- traded in '69 to the Yankees for Mickey Scott. The Sox traded Scott to the Orioles in '70 for Mickey McGuire. McGuire never played again.
Gary Peters- In '69, Traded with Don Pavletic to the Red Sox for Syd O'Brien and Jerry Janeski. O'Brien was traded with Ken Berry, Janeski was traded for Rick Reichardt.

Ken Berry- was traded in '70 with Syn O'Brien and Billy Wynne to the Angels for Jay Johnstone, Tom Egan and Tom Bradley.
Tommy McCraw- after '70, sent to Senators for Ed Stroud. Stroud then retired after '71.
Duane Josephson- traded before '71 with Danny Murphy to Red Sox for Tony Muser and Vincente Romo.

Tommy John- In '71 traded with Steve Huntz to Dodgers for Dick Allen
Joe Horlen- released by the Sox before '72.

Walt Williams- traded after '72 to Indians for Eddie Leon.

Wilbur Wood- stayed with team until retirement after '78.

----principals on '72 sox:
Ed Herrmann- home-grown
Dick Allen- acquisition
Mike Andrews- acquisition
Ed Spiezio- acquisition for Don Eddy, who was home-grown.
Rich Morales- home-grown
Carlos May- home-grown
Pat Kelly- acquisition
Jay Johnstone- acquisition
Rick Reichardt- acquisition
Luis Alvarado- acquisition
Walt Williams- from '67
Bill Melton- home-grown
Tom Egan- acquisition
Jorge Orta- home-grown/Mexico

Wilbur Wood- from '67
Stan Bahnsen- acquisition for Rich McKinney who was home-grown
Tom Bradley- acquisition
Dave Lemonds- acquisition
Terry Forster- home-grown
Steve Kealey- acquisition for Art Kusyner, who was home-grown
Rich Gossage- home-grown
Vicente Romo- acquisition
Cy Acosta- home-grown/Mexico

by ruffster on Jul 23, 2007 10:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow - you must be old like me

Great job recapping where my '67 heroes went. Looks like the Mafia - everybody disappeared! One godd trade - John for Allen.

If we get as good and/or exciting as the '72 team I'll be happy.

I'll be dead before all of you

by winningugly on Jul 23, 2007 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hopefully not as old as you

But those are the names I grew up on... awesome. Look at all that talent from the system

White Sox baseball, let the kids learn to play

by Brush Back on Jul 23, 2007 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Was definitely easier to move guys back then

Look at that, they practically turned over the entire roster within two years. Wish we could schwab out this team and start over.

by ChicagoPete on Jul 23, 2007 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

my guess is

by '09 the only starters left will be Thome and Konerko. Only Konerko is guaranteed past '08. this will be some pretty massive roster overhaul. Contreras will probably be gone and, hopefully, Garland too, so that's 2/5 of the pitching staff.

by colintj on Jul 23, 2007 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thome...

will probably be gone, too. The team has an option for '09 for him, but it'll be too expensive to pick up.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jul 23, 2007 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

His option for '09 is 7.5 million

I mean if his production is dropping, I don't see us picking it up, but if he looks like he can keep getting it done, then I wouldn't see that as prohibitive. I can't think of anyone else that'd do a sufficient job in that spot and that'd be available to us somehow.

by colintj on Jul 24, 2007 5:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope.

His option for 2009 is for $13 Million, or a $3 Million buyout. It'll be too much money.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jul 24, 2007 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

especially since hit can't hit LHPs anymore

by ChicagoPete on Jul 24, 2007 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ugh

.189 .295 .311 .606 vs. LHP this year.

This doesn't improve as you get older. 2008 is gonna be loads of fun too boys.

by ChicagoPete on Jul 24, 2007 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right, but we get money from the Phillies

for the length of the contract, according to MLB4u.com. That's yet another reason why the deal was so good.

by colintj on Jul 24, 2007 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That money...

runs out after 2008. The Phillies aren't helping with that option.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jul 24, 2007 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can I ask you for the source

because the one I'm looking at says otherwise.

by colintj on Jul 24, 2007 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here you go.

Sox to get $22 million

Sox will pay slightly more than 1/2 of Thome's salary ($46 million)

Every source I see says the Sox get a specific dollar amount ($22 Million). There's nothing contingent on whether or not the Sox pick up that '09 option.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jul 24, 2007 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you are both right

sort of. the 2009 team option can become a player option if thome reaches a certain number of plate appearances. i have never been able to find out what number it is so who knows if he has a chance of reaching this. if the 2009 option become a player option and thome exercises it, the phillies will be paying a portion of it.

Free Ehren Wasserman!

by larry on Jul 24, 2007 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And...

Josh Fields will almost certainly be around in '09.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jul 23, 2007 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, right.

We'll see.

by colintj on Jul 24, 2007 5:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I was going to add the Berry trade

but had to get back to work. He used to be one of my favorite CF's - I remember a catch he made in Yankee Stadium when their right-center fence was all of 4-5 ft. high - he literally went on his stomach, stretched out on top of the fence and caught it.

Has there been a better CF since for the Sox?

And, upon reviewing my previous post, is there any reason I can't type better than Dave Dravecky?

I'll be dead before all of you

by winningugly on Jul 23, 2007 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey you!

Why don't you pick on somebody with as many useful limbs as you?

Half of my life, spent doing time for some other fucker's crime. The other half found me stumbling around, drunk on burgundy wine.

by Toonderstrook on Jul 23, 2007 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

BWAHAHAHA!

Pete Gray was too obscure of a reference - not too many folks around during the Great War.

I'll be dead before all of you

by winningugly on Jul 23, 2007 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

funny

... I thought the Berry trade was pretty good too. The Allen trade worked out great until Allen walked off the team in Sept of 74. The magic that Allen brought to the south side for a couple of years was probably worth it.

John had the arm surgery and ended up having a better career than any other pitcher on either team (67 or 72), except for Gossage. John never had the spectacular seasons Peters, Horlen or Wood had-- but he was very good for a long time. John ought to be in the HOF.

It's amazing how we got pretty much nothin' for the biggest stars of the 67 team-- Agee, Buford, Ward, Peters, Horlen, Locker. Just goes to show that turning over a roster is hard and you gotta be a little lucky too. I don't remember when Hemond took over, but he had some contacts in Mexico that landed us Orta and Acosta.

by ruffster on Jul 23, 2007 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs