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Game 132: White Sox (57-74) @ Rangers (58-72) -- Floyd vs. Gabbard

Gavin Floyd (R, 1-2, 7.36, 10, 4, 33.0, 20, 9, 1.67) vs. Kason Gabbard (L, 2-1, 3.51, 5, 5, 25.2, 16, 8, 1.32)  [Throws, W-L, ERA, G, GS, IP, K, BB, WHIP]

Time: 7:35 p.m. CT, TV: CSN+ (CLTV), Radio: WSCR AM-670 (B-R preview, Live Boxscore; 2006 MLB Gameday; 2007 MLB Gameday)

GO SOX!

0 recs  |  Comment 124 comments

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Display:

Lineups
Good Guys:
        Name             AVG    HR      RBI     SB
1. D Erstad, CF         .272    2       27      7
2. J Fields, LF         .242    17      50      1
3. J Thome, DH          .261    21      66      0
4. P Konerko, 1B        .261    26      71      0
5. J Dye, RF            .249    26      66      2
6. J Uribe, SS          .220    15      52      1
7. D Richar, 2B         .211    3       9       1
8. A Gonzalez, 3B       .227    2       11      1
9. T Hall, C            .216    0       1       0
Bad Guys:
        Name             AVG    HR      RBI     SB
1. F Catalanotto, LF    .267    9       37      2
2. I Kinsler, 2B        .255    16      48      16
3. M Young, SS          .302    7       68      10
4. M Byrd, CF           .306    6       54      2
5. J Botts, DH          .228    1       8       1
6. B Wilkerson, 1B      .235    18      54      2
7. N Cruz, RF           .222    6       24      1
8. G Laird, C           .225    7       40      5
9. T Metcalf, 3B        .248    2       14      0
GO SOX!

by The Wizard on Aug 28, 2007 6:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh boy!
Erstad... Plus Uribe hitting 6th... and Toby Hall
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Aug 28, 2007 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What channel is this on?
According to Comcast, it's not?  Or is the guide just screwed up?

by colintj on Aug 28, 2007 7:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I just started watching and man am I bored
The leadoff position is the hardest to fill.

by omnipotent grab on Aug 28, 2007 7:41 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oi this is terrible
Nice homer for paulie
The leadoff position is the hardest to fill.

by omnipotent grab on Aug 28, 2007 7:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Bored?
OBP-machine future leadoff hitter Thome walking ahead of a Paulie 2-out HR and you are bored?

Damn.  Floyd is pitching in a few minutes.  Get ready to hold onto your hat.  Or nut-sack.

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 28, 2007 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
that Hawk and DJ have reached a new level for dull - this game just seems dead

by Brush Back on Aug 28, 2007 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Floyd! Floyd! Floyd!
Like Sal Maglie - Gavin "The Barber" Floyd.
Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 28, 2007 8:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Frank Sinatra "A Man Alone"
running through my mind.  What, is everyone watching Spanks/Bosux?  Scrubs/Brewers?  Injns/Twinks?  For cry-eye, Sox/Rangers is THE place to be!  Floyd/Gabbard will be THE matchup in 3 years.  You heard it here first.

Love, the White Sox Marketing Department

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 28, 2007 8:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Floyd vs. Gabbard is the matchup
besides I can't watch any of the others!

by The Wizard on Aug 28, 2007 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sigh
In me, you see a man alone
Held by the habit of being on his own
A man who listens to the trembling of the trees
With sentimental ease

In me, you see a man alone
Behind the wall he's learned to call his home
A man who still goes walkin' in the rain
Expecting love again

A man not lonely except when the dark comes on
A man learning to live with mem'ries of midnights that fell apart at dawn

In me, you see a man alone
Drinking up Sundays and spending them alone
A man who knows love is seldom what it seems
Only other people's dreams

[instrumental-strings]

A man learning to live with memories of midnights that fell apart at dawn

In me, you see a man alone
Drinking up Sundays and spending them alone
A man who knows love is seldom what it seems
Just other people's dreams

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 28, 2007 8:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

'night
Try not to get worried
Try not to turn on to
Problems that upset you
Well, don't you know
Everything's all right
Yes, Everything's fine

And I think I shall sleep well tonight
Let the world turn without me tonight

Close your eyes
Close your eyes
And forget all about us tonight

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 28, 2007 8:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Lastly
Will no-one stay awake with me?
Peter? John? James?
Will none of you wait with me?
Peter? John? James?

OK, that's it.  Really.  I'm sounding like colin.  I'm going to wake the wife.

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 28, 2007 8:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I lied!
I'm back
I'm back in the saddle again
I'm back
I'm back in the saddle again

Damon 2-run HR puts Spanks in the lead.

Delicious.  

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 28, 2007 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Woot Thomer!!
I just got a hair cut. :D
The leadoff position is the hardest to fill.

by omnipotent grab on Aug 28, 2007 8:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Nah more like Pods
Only my cock aint broke.
The leadoff position is the hardest to fill.

by omnipotent grab on Aug 28, 2007 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thomer
he's getting out of that slump, methinks.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 28, 2007 8:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

floyd is so tantalizing
but i think i've seen enough. he should be a decent enough reliever but starting doesn't seem to be in his future.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 28, 2007 8:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It really pisses me off...
I'd love to see Floyd succeed. Man would that be a coup.

by southsider80 on Aug 28, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You figure once through
the lineup is all he's good for?
Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 28, 2007 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm not sure
what i think you're alluding to is exactly the problem. he just seems to have had better stuff (other than in that one start) when he was relieving. who knows why that was - i'm sure we can speculate, of course. i just was more impressed when watching him in relief. he was just overall better.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 28, 2007 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's generally true
BP or THT showed that moving to the pen ups your K rate and makes the walk rate more tolerable.  I don't know if it helps GB/FB, which is probably Floyd's biggest problem.  He's got huge homer issues.

Really, though, his status as a number 1 starter submarined his chances, ironically.  I think he's got a really straight fastball because of his arm slot and I'm betting no one was willing to mess with that due to his status.  Halladay went through a similar change which was cited for his success thereafter.  Obviously, I'm no Don Cooper, but I think that's where I'd start.  If you can't pitch off your fastball, you're going to give up runs.  His fastball is reaaaallly hittable.  I'd love to see his pitch f/x data (swings and misses, etc.) for that pitch relative to an average fastball.

by colintj on Aug 28, 2007 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, not at all
he's on and off.

by southsider80 on Aug 28, 2007 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm not sure i'm pissed off
it would be nice if he worked out as a starter but it was a gamble nonetheless. the trade already was a coup, as far as i'm concerned. if gavin works out as a reliever, that's still just icing.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 28, 2007 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't get me wrong...
I like Floyd, and I like the trade for the same reasons you do. He's shown flashes, as a starter and a reliever. I'm just waiting for him to pull it together. 'Pisses me off' is just an expression of my hope for him, in a way.

by southsider80 on Aug 28, 2007 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

stop waiting
it ain't gonna happen
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 28, 2007 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hope,
still have some left in me.

by southsider80 on Aug 28, 2007 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are teams afraid of Fields in left
I've never seena drought of flyballs to left since he's been there

by Brush Back on Aug 28, 2007 8:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

you are just looking too hard
The leadoff position is the hardest to fill.

by omnipotent grab on Aug 28, 2007 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Bronx is Burning series finale
Its been great so far.
The leadoff position is the hardest to fill.

by omnipotent grab on Aug 28, 2007 9:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

IS Toby Hall the biggest waste
of fucking space anyone has ever seen?  Gustavo'd be better.
Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 28, 2007 9:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Sad - we had such high hopes
His offense against lefties was suppose to be such an addition

by Brush Back on Aug 28, 2007 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Late to the game
The game started after many others and the Red Sox/Yankees, Cubs/Brewers lured me away from the Sox. Maybe I havew been the jinx?

by Florida Jim on Aug 28, 2007 10:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

sure looks that way
thanks for the DP
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 28, 2007 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

jinx
It is now official after that double-play.

by Florida Jim on Aug 28, 2007 10:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

haha
  1. Uribe
  2. Richar
  3. AGonz
  4. Fat Toby
But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 28, 2007 10:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

When's Cintron coming back?!?!
He's needed to round out tonights lineup.
But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 28, 2007 10:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hawk really spinning the dial
on the way back machine tonight.  Now he's reminiscing about Ted Williams & DiMaggio.  If we go extra innings he'll be digging out his Cap Anson stories.
But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 28, 2007 10:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't worry
Top of the 9th we'll get that run back:

AGonz
Fat Toby
Erstad

But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 28, 2007 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

getting some separation here
definitely a key series.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 28, 2007 10:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i'm more interested in the head to head
we can really help ourselves and hurt the rangers this week. a whole lot of teams were around the 57-58 win mark at the start of today.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 28, 2007 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure this has been noted......
but tonight was our 5th consecutive game in which all of our runs were scored via the HR.

by stanchar on Aug 28, 2007 10:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Now where did I put those rose colored glasses?
''I finally have to admit it -- we're horseshit [expletive inserted],'' Guillen said. ''I thought we were just playing bad, but, no, we're horseshit [expletive inserted].''

I'll feel much better if we start hearing more of this from management.  Wouldn't it be nice if they came out this winter and said ok, we SUCK - first order of business is getting all this garbage (Cintron, Ozuna, Owens, Erstad, MacDougal, etc) off of the roster.  Doesn't matter if we have to eat their contracts or not.

But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 29, 2007 7:40 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Love it.
"first order of business is getting all this garbage (Cintron, Ozuna, Owens, Erstad, MacDougal, etc) off of the roster."

With ya.

by ballyb on Aug 29, 2007 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Get some guys
who play FUNDAMENTALLY good baseball.

I don't care if we lose as long as we play FUNDAMENTALLY good baseball.

by ballyb on Aug 29, 2007 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure Ozzie will be backpeddling this statement
The minute JR and Brooks heard that they had to cringe. Can't say stuff like that till season tickets are locked in.
Were is that statement from - can you post the link.

by Brush Back on Aug 29, 2007 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where is that from?
that's pretty damn funny. but I agree... I can't imagine Jerry or Kenny being happy with that.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 29, 2007 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Link
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/532445,CST-SPT-sox29.article

Gavin Fraud. Nice touch Cowley.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Aug 29, 2007 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Horseshit is the operative word
I added it up, 30% of our total plate appearances this year have been taken by players with negative VORPs.  28% of our innings pitched have been thrown by pitchers with negative VORPs.  This is pretty amazing, because if you fielded a lineup with 9 guys with a zero VORP, you'd have a winning percentage of .200: ~32-150 for the season.  What's even more amazing is that it's taken Ozzie 132 games to realize how bad we are.  

Kenny's dumpster diving is coming back to haunt us, because what's happened to this team is that we've managed to stockpile an amazing amount of really bad players signed to really bad contracts.  He's gotten lucky on occasion turning a sow's ear into a silk purse, but this season all we're left with is a bunch of sow's ears.

Now Ozzie is trying to distance himself from this mess, but he's partly to blame himself.  He's asked KW to go out and get him players in his own image, and the chickens have come home to roost.

But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 29, 2007 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"players in his own image"
.264 / .287 / .338

It's not easy to find major leaguers with those numbers, bad fundamentals and weak arms.

A trifecta of sorts.

by ballyb on Aug 29, 2007 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some really bad 2008 contracts
PLAYER            VORP      2008 Salary

Alex Cintron    (-10.3)      $1mm
Joe Crede        (-10.3)     ~$5mm
Juan Uribe       (-11.6)      $5mm
Pablo Ozuna      (-3.6)       $1mm

Mike MacDougal   (-2.8)     $2mm
Jose Contreras  (-14.6)     $10mm

That's about $25mm for negative VORP.  You've got to have some junk on your roster like a Terrero or AGonz, but at least those guys make minimum salary.  The guys above are what kill you, their combined $24mm can get you 2 or 3 good ballplayers on the FA market.

Please KW, do NOT pick up the options on Crede and Uribe.  And what the hell were you thinking pulling Pods off of the waiver wire when you could have dumped him on the Cubs?  That's $1mm we could have gotten rid of.

But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 29, 2007 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How could I forget Fat Toby?
Sorry Tobes, you're guaranteed $1.75mm for 2008.
But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 29, 2007 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hindsight...
I'm all for criticizing Kenny Williams, but I liked both the Hall and MacDougal contracts. Both guys have career stats that would make you think they were worth the money being paid.

As for Crede, again I think it was reasonable to bring him back for 2007. Obviously, it would have been better to move him but who knows what the market for Crede was like. We'll see if he returns for 2008. Same with Uribe.

Most of the guys on list weren't obviously a waste of money till their performance this season. Ozuna and Contreras are the two contracts that I think are really open for criticism.

The hidden, bigger problem here is minor league system. If KW is forced to bring back Uribe or similarly overpay some other underperforming vet it will be because the minors offer no viable alternative. And that's all on Williams.  

by hitlesswonder on Aug 29, 2007 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm in agreement here.
I don't know if those contracts seemed so bad in March.  Even Uribe's contract didn't seem crippling.  

I seem to recall that people were thinking that MacDougal, Jenks, and Thornton were going to be the backbone of the 'pen.  Nobody was complaining about that contract at the time it was signed.

I also agree about the minor leagues.  They're completely bereft of talent, which is a big reason why the team is in this mess.  They had absolutely no room for error this season - key players got hurt and underperformed, so the team was screwed.  They had no backup plan.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 29, 2007 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"They had no backup plan."
Because no backup plan was possible going into the season?

What could Plan B have been?

by ballyb on Aug 29, 2007 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I meant was...
that years of neglect of the minor-league system was finally coming home to roost.  There was nothing the team could do other than cross their fingers and hope that nobody got hurt or regressed.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 29, 2007 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not talking about hindsight
I'm talking about what we're committed to, or possibly committed, to NEXT YEAR.  It's the potential ~$25mm that might be paid to those guys that's the real killer.

We can save $10mm by not picking up Uribe's option and not offering Crede arb.  It would also be great if we could get off the hook for Contreras' contract.

I know some people want Crede back, but I think it's a big mistake that ripples through the pond.  Odds are he gets hurt again so you just pissed away another $5mm.  On top of that by bringing him back you put Fields in LF to start the season, so when Fields moves back to 3B you end up just putting another negative VORP guy (Jesse?) back out in LF.  If you don't sign Crede then KW has to go out and get a real LF.  

That's the same kind of mess we had this year when Pods, Erstad & Crede went down.  They were all injury-prone, and we had no contingency plan other than to stick a bunch of crap out there.

But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 29, 2007 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...
that the Sox should let Crede walk, but I'm having trouble coming up with a cheaper alternative for Uribe.  I don't know if Andy Gonzalez can do the job or not.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 29, 2007 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or Richar
Or put Andy at 2nd and Danny at short - Gonzo was playing 2nd till the Wizzer got a hold of him, suddenly he's an outfielder, now he's a 3rd baseman. Richar has played SS - he's also fast enough and works the count to be a leadoff - if we could just see him bunt more and get his ave up.
At this point in the season its truly time to be creative and see what talent we have. Lou's been doing it on the north side since the start of the season. Not to mention in that division they're in a race and he still trying to find the correct niche for his resources.

by Brush Back on Aug 29, 2007 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's my understanding...
that Richar's defense at shortstop is inadequate.  The team moved Iguchi to make room for Richar at second - I think Richar's not moving from second.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 29, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard that
But not sure based on what - his range, arm, just can't field the position? I also thought it was humorous when Philly talked about putting Gooch at 3rd to keep him in the lineup - don't know if they've tried it, or if they backed off the idea. If it works - again it would suck to be us.

by Brush Back on Aug 29, 2007 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

seeing him play second
i'm just not buying that. seems like maybe it was more of an organizational depth thing with the Dbacks.

and moving iguchi? that move would have been made whether we had a danny richar or not.

Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 29, 2007 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On Richar
Here's an article on Richar from Jan of '06. Kind of shows how he ended up at 2nd

Link

Good thing Wizzer didn't see it - he'd have Danny out in center... hmmm - Gooch back at 2, Gonzo at SS (nah)

by Brush Back on Aug 29, 2007 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that article points to footwork
and i can buy that being a good reason. his range seems fine enough for SS but if he hasn't got the footwork down by now, he probably won't.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 29, 2007 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hasn't Reyes been working on his footwork?
I seem to remember last year it was an issue.  Can't young guys be taught it if they have the raw tools (range/instincts/arm)?
Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 29, 2007 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure
but it seems like the d-backs tried and gave up. maybe it was premature and influenced by other reasons, but i buy the reason. he hasn't played SS since 2005, as well. i'm not going to forestall the option but i see why keeping him at 2B may just be the better option.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 29, 2007 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,
but our minor league are really top notch.

by ballyb on Aug 29, 2007 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry.
but our minor league INSTRUCTORS are really top notch.

by ballyb on Aug 29, 2007 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

too bad he's on the major league roster then
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 29, 2007 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Danny at SS has been suggested
and I concur.  A-Gone at 2B is OK, too.  I wouldn't mind re-signing Gooch in the offseason (cheaper than Uribe, I bet).

Let's take an effin' meat-axe to this club this year, already.  Delicate surgery isn't warranted -Mafia-style cleaving is needed.  "You need this every 5-10 years - it gets rid of the bad blood."

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 29, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could live with that.
If the team is going to re-build, though, I'd rather they go all the way.  

Trade Vazquez AND Garland.  Move Konerko.  See if Thome will waive his no-trade.  Non-tender Podsednik and Crede.  Get rid of as many people who are over 30 as possible.  Bring in prospects, somebody who will convince me that this team won't be a bottomless hole of suck for the next decade.

But that's not what's going to happen.  Williams will try and duct-tape the team together, maybe bring in a recognizable name or two and try and trick the fans into thinking the team can contend in '08.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 29, 2007 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I miss Terrero
remember that week when he was hot? And dont forget all the hbp.
The leadoff position is the hardest to fill.

by omnipotent grab on Aug 29, 2007 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

VORP
Would you, please, explain VORP,  of what does it consist? I see it used here often but do not see it elsewhere, thank you.

by Florida Jim on Aug 29, 2007 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

VORP = Value Over Replacement Player
An offensive stat only, VORP attempts to calculate the number of runs a player is contributing above what a replacement-level player at the same position would if given the same percentage of team plate appearances. VORP is a counting stat, not a percentage stat - so, for example, as of July 22, Andruw Jones has a VORP of 31.0. That means that he has created 31 more runs for his team than the average AAA call-up guy would have by this point in the season. It also turns out that every ten runs a player creates is worth roughly one win, so Andruw's offense alone has earned the Braves three wins.

by jeeves on Aug 29, 2007 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

VORP
Value Over Replacement Player. The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player at the same position would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances. VORP scores do not consider the quality of a player's defense.

by ballyb on Aug 29, 2007 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The key is "Replacement Player"
It's measuring a player against a bar that is set really, REALLY low - and that bar is called a "replacement player".

A replacement player is a hypothetical player that you can bring up from AAA for minimum salary, or that you can grab off the waiver wires (think Mike Myers or Craig Monroe) for minimum salary.  You aggregate the statistics for these bottom of the barrel guys, and this gives you a benchmark for expected production by position (ie, the bar will be higher for a LF than for a SS).

Value Over Replacement Player just means how good (or in Sox case, how bad) a player is when measured against this hypothetical piece of garbage floating around that you can pick up for a song or promote from AAA.   A good example is Matt Murton, right now he is exactly at zero VORP, so there's a good reason why he's been spending the whole season bouncing up and down between Iowa and the Cubs.

This differs significantly from benchmarking against an "Average" player.  An average player is really valuable, and usually a lot more expensive.

A replacement player isn't necessarily horrible if you're paying him minimum salary.  Unless you're the Yankees, you need cheap guys to fill out the roster.   But when you have a lineup filled with guys who can't even post a zero VORP you've got horseshit.

Go to "audit teams" and play with this, pretty interesting.  A lot of guys get by just on good reputations or lucky contracts:

http://bbp.cx/team_audit.php?stats&team=CHA

But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 29, 2007 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does Gustavo Molina
qualify as a "replacement player"?

If so, then indeed, that bar is low.

"I give Ozzie an 'A'... This team has never packed it in and I give Ozzie the credit." - Jerry Reinsdorf

by tailgater on Aug 29, 2007 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

VORP
Thank you, that is an excellent explanation!
Tough season for us Sox fans.

by Florida Jim on Aug 30, 2007 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, here's another great quote:
"When your replacements can't meet replacement-level production, you're doing something wrong."

That's what Jay Jaffe said about our team in a recent column on BP.  The sad thing is, it isn't our replacements who are just now getting over the negative VORP hump.  We are going to be one of the worst offenses in the 00's.

CHOO!! CHOO!!

by colintj on Aug 29, 2007 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No kidding
We just gave JD a two year extension @ $10mm/yr and he spend the first three and a half months of the season in negative VORP land.  That's some really wishful thinking on our part.

I think KW is looking at his stats chart upside down.

But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 29, 2007 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I really want to know is
what word came after "horseshit"?  All I can think of is "bitches".  Nothing else really makes sense.
CHOO!! CHOO!!

by colintj on Aug 29, 2007 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look at the link
The quote is "Horse (bleep)".  Nothing after "Horsebleep".  Wonder what word he sed?

Actually, "horseshit" is one of my old-time baseball descriptive terms.  About effin' time he used it to describe the team (though not management's performance - that would be too close to home).

Re: pre-season contracts - how about Pods/Erstad along with Count/Ozuna?  And not all of us were enamored of Toby Chong - look it up.  And Cheat and others questioned the whole Crede experience.  So I don't think many of us throught we were set in the 'pen, the OF, 3B, or SS.

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 29, 2007 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Said", goddammit
PS  Pete, I dig the rant.  I vicariously live for your rants.  Keep it  going when warranted (meaning you get to pop off at least once a day about this team's present and future).
Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 29, 2007 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What got me going was that TB game
It didn't strike me how truly bad we were until I glanced at the standings and realized they were the only team beneath us.  

Then when you really dig through the numbers you see why we're so fucking bad.

 

But seriously, I always love speed.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 29, 2007 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, it hit me looking at the 2 lineups
and seeing their young talent kicking our asses, at least statistically.  If they had pitching outside of Kazmir/Shields they'd be dangerous.

We, on the other hand, are only dangerous to my health.  I think I'm going to have a coronary if I keep watching this season.

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 29, 2007 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And after yesterday
They are still the only team beneath us.
Having the draft choice won't do us any good anyways - Boras usually wraps up the top talent and we will get some 2 sport guy that just started baseball his sophomore year in college. But he's over 6'3" and can throw over 95mph95mph

by Brush Back on Aug 29, 2007 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, is this Jimmy Two Times?
95mph95mph.

:0

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 29, 2007 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad it only took 5/6th of the season....
to realize this.  This Ozzie is a sharp one.  Was it the mid-.200 BA's or the sky-high ERAs?

by LVSoxFan on Aug 29, 2007 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We need a daily rant entry
Its a pain mixing these rants in with the last loss each day!

by Brush Back on Aug 29, 2007 12:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we could get cheat to throw up an open
thread that stays at the top for rantin'.
CHOO!! CHOO!!

by colintj on Aug 29, 2007 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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