Not enough Yaz on your life?

by The Wizard on Sep 18, 2007 1:03 PM CDT in Quotes Comment 43 comments

Just ask Hawk and he'll give you some more:

"To this day, I've never seen anybody have a better year than that," said Ken "Hawk" Harrelson, now a White Sox broadcaster and then [1967] a wingman to Yaz in the Boston batting order. "The numbers have been better and all that. But I'm from the old school. Don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it. I've never seen anyone have a year like that since then. He's Mr. Renaissance of baseball in New England."
...
"We were the third-best team," said Harrelson. "Minnesota was the best team, Detroit was the second-best team and we were the third-best team. The White Sox [who finished three games out] had the best pitching, but they didn't have any hitting. Even though Minnesota and Detroit were better, they didn't have Yaz. We had Yaz. And we knew it."
...
"We just jumped on his coattails and just let him take us all the way to the World Series," said Harrelson.

*****

BTW, would you trade Jon Garland for Anthony Reyes and one of Jaime Garcia and Blake Hawksworth? If the Cardinals think that's too much, like lboros thinks, what will you settle for?

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Garland trade...

I don't know if I'd do that trade (really, how many more young arms who have struggled at the big-league level do the White Sox need), but it seems like a very good return on Garland.

If they can't at least do that well, they'd probably be better off holding onto Garland and taking the draft picks for him.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Sep 18, 2007 1:23 PM CDT reply actions

draft picks

what draft picks would garland bring?

by The Wizard on Sep 18, 2007 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm assuming...

that he'd be at least a type-"B" free agent. Is that wrong?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Sep 18, 2007 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions

and a type B brings 1 sandwich pick back yes?

by The Wizard on Sep 18, 2007 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions

yes

BA:

Some changes have been made to the draft-pick compensation afforded teams which lose major league free agents. Type C free agents have been eliminated, while teams that lose Type B free agents, which had previously received a pick from the signing club, will now get a sandwich pick between the first and second rounds. (This was pursued by the union to remove the disincentive for teams to sign those players.) Those changes go into effect immediately. The number of players deemed Type A and B has been tweaked as well. Type A free agents, whose former team continues to receive a first- or second-round pick from the signing club as well as an extra pick between the first and second rounds, will be reduced from the 30 percent of players (as determined by a statistical formula) to 20; the Type B band is reduced from 31-50 percent to 21-40.

by The Wizard on Sep 18, 2007 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions

So, then...

reduce it much from Reyes + "C" Prospect (which is essentially what that deal is), and that sandwich pick looks better and better.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Sep 18, 2007 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions

Why trade Garland for pitching?

I'd try to see if a team would be willing to deal offense for him -- either youngsters from a team like the Dodgers or Braves (both of whom show a willingness to deal young talent for established vets), or a rent-a-player deal for someone like Adam Dunn. A Garland-Dunn deal seems like something the Reds might try this winter, since they need pitching and Garland profiles well for that park.

by asinwreck on Sep 18, 2007 1:49 PM CDT reply actions

If we're trading with St Louis...

Bryan Anderson should be coming back (among others) our way. He's a catcher who's only 20 but already holding his own in AA. Beyond that, I don't know -- St Louis system doesn't seem particularly great. Chris Perez is okay but he's just a reliever.

I don't see a match.

by CWSKeith on Sep 18, 2007 1:50 PM CDT reply actions

That deal would

pretty much be dead in the water just because of the guy's name, right?

by palehose67 on Sep 18, 2007 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions

you got a point there

ozzie will have a fit if he hears that name!

by The Wizard on Sep 18, 2007 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions

Garland for Anderson

Straight-up -- I would do that deal. Throw in some fringe prospect if the Sox need two names. No to Reyes + C prospect.

by hitlesswonder on Sep 18, 2007 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions

Comparing it to...

the Freddy Garcia trade is exactly right (I could even buy the Anthony Reyes = Gavin Floyd comp), only (1) Garland doesn't have nearly the red flags that Garcia did last year and (2) Jaime Garcia is not Gio Gonzalez. Never has been, never will be.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Sep 18, 2007 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions

Reyes?

Yeah, because the Cell LOVES flyball pitchers. There's no way Kenny wants him.

Keith has it right. There isn't a match and the STL system is only better than ours because it has Rasmus.

CHOO!! CHOO!!

by colintj on Sep 18, 2007 1:57 PM CDT reply actions

oFF TOPIC....

but interesting....noticed in Rob Neyer's chat today he mentioned "THE GUY ON THE South Side" as a possible gold glove shortstop. Two things: 1) it reaffirms my liking of Neyer 2) reaffirms my own conviction that Uribe is a hell of a defensive ss...this loss of range people talk about I just don't see.

by dantesox on Sep 18, 2007 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions

I think...

the "loss of range" people are talking about is the loss of Joe Crede. Uribe can only go so far to his right.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Sep 18, 2007 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions

Could be.

As for the Garland trade....for the millionth time....some thing Like Lillibridge and a bullpen arm, please.

by dantesox on Sep 18, 2007 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions

When I'm talking

about declining range, I'm talking about what I see and what advanced defensive metrics say. The best one out there (UZR) confrims what my eyes told me; that Uribe has gone from great (top 3 in baseball) to very good to above average in the last 3 years.

by bhoov on Sep 18, 2007 2:29 PM CDT reply actions

yeah

neyer doesn't seem to be watching many sox games or looking at stats. in isolation, each would cast doubt on such a claim; taken together, it pretty much blows it out of the water. uribe has declined quite a bit in the last two years, albeit from a very high level.

White Sox Baseball: Assume the Position.

by larry on Sep 18, 2007 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions

if

it's that obvious, then I'm a moron, because I SEE most of the games, quite a few in person. I could be swayed with one or two or three of these high-tec fielding indices, I suppose, but I don't think it's apparent just by the eye.

by dantesox on Sep 18, 2007 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions

Some plays that terrifice D Juan would make

Fat Juan just doesnt do anymore. Like some balls over his head he would make a running catch before but now he always seems to jump for them without backing up at all.

Who is the # 2 pick?

by omnipotent grab on Sep 18, 2007 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions

I

don't think he's any fatter than in '05, seriously. I don't see the difference. He should lose 10-15, but he had those same 10-15 since I can remember.

by dantesox on Sep 18, 2007 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions

LOL

reading the comments

I am not a big fan of Reyes but he is cheap. He has been given a lot of opportunities acutally plenty the last couple years and he has not stepped up and been consistent. If we can trade him for garland straight up I would do it.

Garland is 2 years older than Reyes. At a similar point in his career Garland was deciding whether he should accept a medium-term deal in order to get paid and still reach free-agency before age 30 or go to arbitration for a year and end up on the FA market with the chance of coming off back-to-back 18 win seasons. It's like they're the same pitcher.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 18, 2007 3:02 PM CDT reply actions

Agree with asinwreck

Why trade Jonny for speculative pitching? He's just as likely to come back with a consistent year (the numbers quoted on the Cards' site showed amazingly consistent numbers from last year to this year, with the exception of W-L). His numbers really aren't that bad. Seems like we'd be churning our pitching when we need position players badly (despite the new chant of a Gold Glover at SS in our midst - he still has a pig iron bat).

On another topic, I ws amazed at how civil those Cards posters are - one guy apologized for using the only cuss word - "hell" - on the whole site. WTF? Is this not baseball? Spitting, scratching, and swearing are part and parcel in these discussions, goddammit.

And, no, I will not apologize.

Embrace the carp(e) diem.

by winningugly on Sep 18, 2007 3:19 PM CDT reply actions

Forget about Garland

where's the love for Yaz???? That guy was the greatest...EVA!

"I thought we were just playing bad, but, no, we're horseshit." - Oswaldo Guillen, Sr.

by ChicagoPete on Sep 18, 2007 3:28 PM CDT reply actions

Yes. Hawk told me that I think.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Sep 18, 2007 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions

Who would want Blake Hawksworth?

And Jaime Garcia is basically Jack Egbert except he's not past the injury nexus, has a worse strikeout rate, a worse walk rate and has a gopher ball problem.

Both have 5 starter upside at best and neither will be in the league for more than a few years.

And Anthony Reyes looks like he's going to be out of the league in two years.

I grant that it's only 1 year of Garland, but Garland in the NL is a 4.00 ERA with 200 innings. The Cardinals didn't have a single pitcher throw over 200 innings and had only 2 that came within 40 innings of that mark. And they play in the Central. Garland could have put them over the top this year if they had thrown out some decent prospects. There's no respect for league average, I guess.

CHOO!! CHOO!!

by colintj on Sep 18, 2007 3:57 PM CDT reply actions

Forget the Cardinals

USS Mariner says that Seattle might be looking to get rid of Jose Lopez. He's terrible on D -- both at SS and 2B -- but no worse than our middle IFs batwise. Garland for Lopez + a minor M's arm? Maybe they'd even want to drop in Jeremy Reed ...

by horatiosanzserif on Sep 18, 2007 5:29 PM CDT reply actions

I have a hard time following the logic here

Why would we give up something of value for Lopez, who never really got on base in the minors, sports a .262/.296/.381 career line, and whom you call terrible defensively? If he's not any good, why acquire him? Especially with the faint praise "no worse than our MIFers"

Lopez would be an interesting acquisition in the Miles-for-Uribe mold, but it's a pretty ridiculous proposal when attached to the name Garland.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 18, 2007 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions

Thome

Does anyone know if Thome is playing today?

by mtnman on Sep 18, 2007 6:03 PM CDT reply actions

thome? yes

btw, alex is @ 3rd, celebration time!

by The Wizard on Sep 18, 2007 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions

contreras' agent has a SS/CF out of cuba

Alexei Ramirez, 26?

by The Wizard on Sep 18, 2007 6:45 PM CDT reply actions

I know nothing about him

because he's behind Castro's wall, but this is huge for a team like the White Sox with holes at SS AND CF.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 18, 2007 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions

i remember him from the WBC

i watched all of cuba's games because they had so many unknowns. he played center in most of cuba's games and looked pretty good offensively. i remember thinking to myself that a young guy like that probably could command a pretty nice deal if he could get out of cuba.

White Sox Baseball: Assume the Position.

by larry on Sep 18, 2007 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions

stats from the WBC

http://ww2.worldbaseballclassic.com/2006/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ibp&cid=798

White Sox Baseball: Assume the Position.

by larry on Sep 18, 2007 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions

Problem

I doubt he can obtain all the necessary paperwork in time. If everything went smoothly, he might be able to get things in order by Spring Training. Things aren't likely to go smoothly.

Not early enough for the White Sox to throw some money at him on the free agent market.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 18, 2007 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions

contreras defected in early october

and was signed by the end of the year. you could be right or things could go real fast. you never know with this sort of stuff.

White Sox Baseball: Assume the Position.

by larry on Sep 18, 2007 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions

But it was the Yankees

in a bidding war with the Red Sox.

I was speaking only of our chances. The White Sox aren't going to be getting into a bidding war over a guy unless they know he'll open the season as one of their starting 9.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 18, 2007 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions

What happened to...

Yulieski Gourriel? He was that impressive-looking secondbaseman, IIRC. He was probably the only guy who I distinctly remember from the WBC.

by CWSKeith on Sep 18, 2007 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions

interestingly

gourriel played third at the pan-am games last month and ramirez played 2B. they did this to make room in the outfield for some other young(ish) studs.

gourriel didn't have a great pan-am games but was very solid in cuba's gold medal effort.

White Sox Baseball: Assume the Position.

by larry on Sep 18, 2007 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions

Gourriel

is actually a SS, but played 2B and 3B in the WBC to make room for I don't even remember, one of the older veterans of the club.

He was rumored to have defected last off-season, but that was bunk. His family has deep ties in Cuba (and or Castro) and he doesn't seem likely to defect.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 18, 2007 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions

well

i wouldn't be concerned with that. he's certainly good enough to be part of our outfield, especially if josh goes back to third. and jamie knows how to grease the palms in the DR. after that, it wouldn't take much effort to get him the visa. at any rate, we'll know by the time free agency starts whether he'll have his stuff together. i wouldn't bet against jamie.

his presence will certainly help to dilute even more the already crowded CF market this offseason.

White Sox Baseball: Assume the Position.

by larry on Sep 18, 2007 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions

If it's doable, that'd be pretty much perfect.

Sign him to 3 years and whatever the reasonable associated cost is, have Shelby or whomever ready by 2009/10.

CHOO!! CHOO!!

by colintj on Sep 18, 2007 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions

hawk is right

I did an apba replay of the '67 White Sox. The Bosox had Yaz, Scott, 1/2 a year of Conigliaro, and Lonborg-- and nothing much else. The Tigers were loaded with stars all around. And the Twins had Killebrew, Carew, Oliva, Allison, Kaat, Chance, Rerrit, Perry, Boswell. Their only weakness was the bullpen.

by ruffster on Sep 18, 2007 6:50 PM CDT reply actions