Jerry Owens is Your De Facto Leadoff hitter

by The Cheat on Feb 26, 2008 12:32 AM CST in News Comment 140 comments

Let's forget for a moment that leadoff hitter is not a position or that Ozzie and Kenny (generally) say they just want a leadoff man who gets on base. Their actions, as observed and relayed by the three local media-type bloggers, speak exponentially louder than their words.

The buzz of Monday's intrasquad game was all about Jerry Owens, with Gonzo and Cowley raving about his first inning bunt. Yep, a bunt. Off Tomo F. Ohka. In an intrasquad game. That bunt, a skill which Owens has been working on with new 3rd base coach Jeff F.N. Cox, almost roused Williams from his seat and combined with Orlando Cabrera's double prompted at least one comparison to 2005.

A quick check of B-R's Play Index reveals that Scott Podsednik had 36 first-inning singles in 2005, while Iguchi had 8 first-inning doubles. Of those, only once did Iguchi's double drive in Pods (as Cabrera's did Owens) after he had reached via single. Once. In 162 games. Seems like an apt comparison to me.

I know I'm overreacting. I think the lack of tangible, visible baseball action is getting to me. I have no problem with Owens getting the 300+ at-bats that he earned with a halfway decent second half in '07. It just feels like he's already been given the starting job, while Carlos Quentin remains the red-headed stepchild of Sox camp.

If the White Sox are going to be the championship team that the White Sox brain trust thinks they can be, one of the main reasons will be that Carlos Quentin and Josh Fields successfully made the leap to become very good offensive players. Jerry Owens at his very best might be an average center fielder, and as such, his presence as de facto leadoff hitter would seem to limit the teams playoff hopes versus a team with a fully-realized Carlos Quentin in the lineup.

* * * * *

In addition to the usual -- how do I say this without sounding like an ass? Let's say entertaining -- questions from fans, Scott Merkin's latest Q&A includes a picture with the following caption: Joe Crede will likely remain with the White Sox for the duration of the 2008 season. Uh huh.

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Podsednik 2.0

This is depressing.

by Dinger on Feb 26, 2008 1:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I found it interesting.....

that Cowley also pegs Ramirez as the starting 2B heading north.

by stanchar on Feb 26, 2008 6:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

is it tomorrow yet?

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Feb 26, 2008 6:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

i will puke

if joe crede is with this team all year and fields is in the minors and or not getting a starters share of AB's.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Feb 26, 2008 7:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I dont see it

I still Crede will be moved. Though again, A Crede-Cab-Uribe infield would be an awfully good defensive unit.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Feb 26, 2008 7:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sure is

but then you completely waste josh fields.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Feb 26, 2008 7:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

3 years ago

Now Crede has a rebuilt back and Uribe is slightly smaller than Fat Albert.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 8:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Question

Does nice 2nd half mean Post-ASB or Sept/Oct? i guess if Owens wasn't competing against Quentin and hitting leadoff, I wouldn't be so irritated by him.

MrROFL.com

by shaftr on Feb 26, 2008 7:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

i wouldnt mind owens

playing if we could fit quentin in somewhere.... damn you JD and that extension!

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Feb 26, 2008 7:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Damn Kenny and Sox Brass

Not JD.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 8:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Happy Birthday Jerry

DOB: Feb 16, 1981

His SLG in the minors since 2004:

.349
.406
.346
.366

Question: Owens has been with the CWS org since 2005. Why is he finally being taught how to bunt during spring training of 2008? Is this the first time someone noticed dees keed run fast? Or is he too stupid/stubborn to learn?

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 8:03 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Duane Schaffer's Fault

Obviously.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 8:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Must be

I mean, the guy is 27yrs old and he's just now being taught how to bunt? When the only part of his game that's major league quality is his speed? I'd like to have either Jerry or someone in the org explain this.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 8:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Jeff Fox' influence, obviously

Where has this guy been hiding all these years?

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 8:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Damn it, bunt the ball you knucklehead!

Year Name Bunts Hits Pct
1992 Brett Butler 67 40 .597
1992 Kenny Lofton 67 31 .463
2003 Alex Sanchez 64 31 .484
2005 Willy Taveras 59 30 .508
2003 Juan Pierre 70 29 .414
2004 Alex Sanchez 58 29 .500
2007 Willy Taveras 36 27 .750
2005 Juan Pierre 59 25 .424
2002 Juan Pierre 52 24 .462
1971 Del Unser 36 23 .639
1979 Frank Taveras 28 23 .821
1991 Otis Nixon 50 23 .460
1990 Brett Butler 45 22 .489
1969 Bobby Tolan 34 21 .618
1980 Frank Taveras 24 21 .875
1991 Brett Butler 43 21 .488
1993 Brett Butler 49 21 .429
1995 Otis Nixon 34 21 .618
2006 Willy Taveras 38 21 .553
1964 Maury Wills 43 20 .465
1964 Don Blasingame 23 20 .870
1965 Maury Wills 34 20 .588
1979 Paul Molitor 34 20 .588
1989 Brett Butler 38 20 .526
1997 Otis Nixon 35 20 .571
1998 Neifi Perez 34 20 .588
2004 Juan Pierre 46 20 .435

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's REALLY amazing.

Thing is, most of those guys could hit the ball out of the infield.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Feb 26, 2008 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

In aggregate,

643 / 1200 = .536

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Feb 26, 2008 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

those #'s are skewed

It represents the leaders in most bunt hits going back to 1960. But jeez, but the damn ball on the ground and run dude!

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's like a nightmare,

rehashing in my mind Owens' ABs last year.

-Weak grounder to 2B.
-Weak grounder to 2B.
-Weak grounder to 1B.
-Weak grounder to 2B.
-Flair over the infielders' heads THAT STOPS ROLLING before it gets to the outfielder.
-Weak grounder to 1B.
-Weak grounder to 2B.
-Weak grounder to 2B.
-Flair over the infielders' heads THAT STOPS ROLLING before it gets to the outfielder.
.
.
.
.

The above repertoire of ABs does not lend itself to the "surprise bunt."

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Feb 26, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

most those guys could hit the ball

out of the infield? outside of butler, molitor, and lofton you can pretty much take that list as an indictment of whatever manager decided the rest of those players should get enough plate appearances to be on that list. a bunch of poor baseball players who should count themselves lucky to be named in the same breath as the above and thank their lucky stars someone decided to let them play for as long as they did.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

Almost all those guys are Jerry Owens clones, bad hitters with zero power and one + skill - speed.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's what makes bunting for hits effective

If a guy can't hit-- the infield plays him way in.

If he can hit (enough to rip a line drive through the infield at least), the infield has to play back; thus the bunt becomes a good strategic option.

by ruffster on Feb 26, 2008 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

more bunting

If Jerry'd learn how to bunt he might be able to keep himself in the majors for a few years:

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A lost art

Good old article on bunting, NYT reg required.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lost largely for good reasons

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

true, true

But for a player like Jerry Owens, it's the only thing he should be doing. He has zero power, so even if he swings the bat the best possible outcome is a single. He might as well bunt, he's got a much better chance of getting a hit than if he's swinging the bat.

If Cox can teach him how to bunt for a hit in this short of a time period, Owens can become useful to this team. If his OBP can get up to .370 or so, he can platoon in CF and improve the OF defense considerably by getting Swisher out of there for 75% of the games. I've finally found something to get excited about with the CWS this spring, woohoo!

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 10:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's certainly an interesting argument

of course he should be bunting. just not on any baseball team i follow. useful is a relative term, i take it. jerry is an adequate enough CF but - i know you'll love this - his arm isn't good enough and he oddly doesn't cover enough ground to be considered a good defensive replacement. i suppose he's better than swisher. or, more appropriately, dye, who is the one who is likely to be the one replaced with swisher moving to right.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For the Cell he's ok

We need a CF with speed to cover up JD's lack of range. His noodle arm won't hurt you as much in this park. Used judiciously, he could become an effective player.

If somehow he can get an OBP of .370 (not completely unreasonable if he's strict platoon vs. RHP only and learns to bunt), you bat Swisher behind him with OBP of .380+ - that could be exciting.

Even better - if Swisher bats 2nd, then Ozzie won't bunt. Now you have an offense.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i'd call .370 quite unreasonable

but from your fingers to god's ears.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's springtime, there's always hope

He's 27, he's at his peak!

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's snowing

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

but the sun is shining!

I did the math, here's his 90th percentile PECOTA:

531 PA
.291 AVG
.354 OBP

This is obviously all conjecture and assumes that PECOTA assumes he doesn't bunt at all so:

Let's say he learns how to bunt, and get a hit at a .450 clip per bunt attempt. If he attempts a bunt in 10% of his PAs, he can add .017 to his AVG. That would make his OBP .371 - I say again, WOOHOO! Champagne baby, October baseball!

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i understood the math

like i said, to god's ears.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No ragging today about "previously

traveled ground"? I though the JO (non) experiement had been thoroughly dissected, prodded, and poked, culminating in the official prognosis of "he sucks"?

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you don't like the fancy graphs and fun lists?

this is new information. this is the slight twist that makes worn topics like new. of course, it doesn't change the assessment much.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL (really)

Yeah, all the energy spent on assessing from an infinite amount of angles, and we get back to the same place:

GHTFOOH! (Get him the...out of here.) That's entertainment!

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 11:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and your point is???

What exactly do you bring to any discussion other than endless stupid comments with some nasty little dig thrown in?

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not much re: statistics,

and you are obviously far superior in that area. I was not denigrating your efforts in the least, and was smiling at the conclusion, not the process.

But since you've made this personal, I'll defend my reason for hanging around. If there is anything I can offer the site, if not you, Pete, it's some perspective, a little entertainment, and the same passion you seem to possess about our team.

And I think I can make fun of myself as well as some of the other comments. I don't recall calling anyone "stupid", or suggesting they go elsewhere, since everyone has a different contribution to make. Even when you were obviously highly agitated when discussing politics a few weeks ago on a diary I don't believe I ever personalized it, even though we obviously disagreed.

But, thank for making my point. When I said I knew the Rant wasn't far behind I didn't figure it'd be in 5 minutes. So if I hit a nerve, as mentioned, it was unintended. I admire your ability to come up with stats to support your thesis. I might suggest lightening up just a little - it's an Internet site, and we all love our Sox.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

stop poking

I won't punch.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No problem, F.N.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well

pete makes a point. that list of players above is a largely a sad list. but almost all of those guys had a year or two where they actually could be described as good or at least adequate. whether that was luck or peak or whatever is somewhat immaterial. the problem is that all of them were used too much just to get that one year of magic and it certainly isn't a sure thing. jerry is at his peak (actually, for a speed player, he's arguably almost past his peak). if he manages to do all that stuff pete mentions and gets some luck, he could be reasonable for a year. the problem i have with that is it will be a flash in the pan year and will mean that jerry will be back starting next year to return to his previous level of crappiness.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

All we need is one year

from him, and this has to be THE YEAR. It's now or never for this core group. This team is not going to get better next year, that's for sure. This is the last hurrah.

As it is, they're gonna need a lot of luck to do anything. Getting something unexpectedly good like a .370 OBP out of Owens is exactly what the doctor ordered, and the only way he gets there is by bunting effectively. KW knows all this too, I now see why he jumped out of his seat when Jerry bunted for a hit his first PA of the spring.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why bunt

when you can ground into a double play?

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The best is yet to come!

After Jesse leads off with a bunt, OCab can bunt him over to 2nd - YESSSSSSSS!

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no, no

you just don't get ozzieball. jerry steals second and then o-cab fails to successfully bunt him over to third.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and then...

o-cab pops out weakly on a 0-2 count ...

by ruffster on Feb 26, 2008 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no, no

cabrera pops up the bunt and hangs owens out to dry. double plays are ozzie ball.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kenny Williams

jumps out of his drawers watching an Owens' bunt and Pete OVERNIGHT becomes the walking encyclopedia re. bunting.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Feb 26, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bunting...

You can't bunt every time you go up there. Soon the offense is going to start coming up to prepare for the bunt. And since Owens can't get it out of the infield a large majority of the time there is little danger in them moving up to cover the bunt.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 26, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm only guessing

but it looks like the bunt success rate corresponds pretty closely with power surges in the league. Which would make sense, I think. If the average hitter is more able to do more damage, the more room in the infield there should be for him to bunt.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Feb 26, 2008 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it looks pretty arbitrary to me.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 26, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

There's going to be a certain amount of that

with the data set, because it's a relatively infrequent event with a lot of functioning variables. But a more or less lively ball would make sense, since a deeper infield means more surface area available for successful bunts.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Feb 26, 2008 8:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

These guys are NOT BRAINDEAD.

I can't see Quentin coming off the bench as a late inning replacement. All the guy has done is HIT, HIT, HIT (prior to the shoulder injury).

Something will happen.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Feb 26, 2008 8:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The ambiguous LF position...

Why Jerry Owens may be starting:
-- Ozzie and Kenny both seem to love him.
-- He fits the stupid stereotypical idea of a leadoff hitter.
-- He can play CF.
-- Quentin isn't 100% yet.

Why Carlos Quentin may be starting:
-- Kenny knew what kind of talent he was trading for in Quentin when he gave up Chris Carter for him.
-- Ozzie keeps saying that Swisher will stay in CF in Spring Training, meaning that a corner outfield spot is open for Quentin.
-- He has the potential to be a much bigger offensive force than Owens.

by SSH2005 on Feb 26, 2008 9:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Merkin's Homerbag...

Link:

I think it is in the best interest of the White Sox organization to sign Joe Crede to a long-term contract. He is the best third baseman in the American League, and if the White Sox are serious about winning, they need him. This would be an awesome public relations move by the White Sox, since they lost out on all the free agents. Keep Josh Fields, too. Quit acting like small market teams. This is Chicago.
-- Linda, Chicago

A-Rod is the second best third baseman in the American League.

by SSH2005 on Feb 26, 2008 8:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

HA!

JD is the best RF in the American League! Lets sign him for two more years no matter the price. Do it Kenny and Jerry!

(Wait, we did...tear).

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 8:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and...

M-Cab is middle of the road too, right?

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Feb 26, 2008 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Sox have played one intersqaud game....

and everyone is rushing to judgement.

Owens is the leadoff.
Ramirez is going to start at second.
Crede will remain with the Sox.
Fields will start in AAA.
Quentin will be buried on the bench.

Relax....let's play some baseball against real competition before everyone fills out their lineup card.

by BoKnows on Feb 26, 2008 8:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

ha!

thanks for putting me in my place BK and reminding me it is only one inter-squad game. as its been said before, we are all rabid for some real baseball, and we're all taking the first signs of baseball way too seriously!

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Feb 26, 2008 8:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

plus

its a game no one actually SAW.

All we have is the accounts of people who may or may not be trusted.

Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!

by Nordhagen on Feb 26, 2008 8:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know it's only one game..

but KW's words and actions have me a little worried. I think Owens' ceiling is a bottom tier CF, or decent 4th OF. Brian Nikola Anderson and Quentin have much higher ceilings IMO, and should be given every chance to start in CF this year.

I suppose, then, that Swish is playing LF.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 26, 2008 9:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

You aren't over-reacting.

Williams was going crazy for the JO bunt, and just seemed to have a little man crush on him.

I didn't like seeing it.

by Tony82087 on Feb 26, 2008 9:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

What would suck is if the Sox...

jerk Quentin around for the next 1 to 2 seasons until Dye is traded or his contract expires. It would suck to have to wait that long until Quentin is finally an everyday outfielder.

by SSH2005 on Feb 26, 2008 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Quentin will likely be in AAA

His shoulder isn't 100% and Ozzie and KW really like Owens. I don't think that's real controversial. Of course, if Owens is abysmal and Quentin hits the snot out of the ball then I think the opposite will be true. But if both perform OK in Tucson I think a tie goes to the runner.

Cheat once said that the Sox were not a hard organization to read and I think it's true in this case. The Sox spent 3 years devoting LF to a weak-hitting leadoff man. They are clearly comfortable with that arrangement and I think it's likely that Owens will be the starting LF in 2008. It does make the trade for Quentin puzzling, but it's possible they just view him as insurance for when/if Dye gets hurt in 2008 and then as Dye's replacement in 2009 or 2010.

by hitlesswonder on Feb 26, 2008 10:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Dye is signed

at crazy money through 2009. So if this is all true, best case we see Quinten full time in 2010.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know

And Dye has an NTC for 2009. But 2009 is a long way away and the Sox might have openings at DH or 1B. Who knows. And money on a deal and a NTC don't necessarily mean he won't be traded.

by hitlesswonder on Feb 26, 2008 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

limited NTC in 2009

six teams

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dye

Money and a NTC clause make it a lot harder to trade, than lets say less money and not having a no trade clause!

Unless the Sox trade Konerko or Thome, it will be hard for Quentin to see the field before 2010. THAT is if Owens sticks in LF.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

thome

is not by any means a sure thing to reach the PA necessary to have his option vest (it's a safer bet than not that he won't reach it). the sox have flexibility, if they choose to explore them.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If Quentin isn't healthy

he's got more invested in him than JO. It won't bug me if he starts in AAA if that's the case.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Feb 26, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice to see things haven't changed

Ozzie and company talk about OBP which we will all find out was just lip service. For Ozzie its about the bantam weight track star who can flat out run, who cares if he can get on regularly. If he really was about OBP, Mr Owens would be running late in the game as a pinch runner, and the guy who has had a high OBP for his entire minor league career would be touted as the starter in Left. Only on this team would anyone consider Owens a starter.

by southsideirish71 on Feb 26, 2008 10:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

don't watch much baseball, huh

juan pierre, willy taveras, rafael furcal, dave roberts, felipe lopez, corey patterson, julio lugo, ryan theriot...

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

In Williams defense

He did trade for two players (Swisher and Quentin) that profile has high OBP players. So it's hard to argue that KW didn't recognize a problem and attempt to fix it. It's too bad Owens doesn't play 2B.

by hitlesswonder on Feb 26, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Owens

Owens at any position is scary. He needs to learn how to take a walk.

I still like Owens on the bench and as a sometimes starter, but not an everyday starter (at any postion).

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Learning to walk isn't the problem

Making pitchers afraid to pitch to him is the issue. His walk rates were fine in the minors.

Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Feb 26, 2008 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yup

any pitcher who would throw four balls to owens probably should be summarily waived.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if he learns to bunt

He'll probably get a few more walks. It's a lot easier to bunt a fastball, he'd probably see more breaking balls early in the count if the pitcher wants to keep him from bunting. More breaking balls = more balls.

Plus he'd sleaze out some more hits if the IF is playing way in on both corners and the 2B cheats in for the drag bunt. Some of those weak dribblers to 2B might find their way through.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Happy pills today, Pete?

Unusually optimistic - you are frightening me. ('Cause I know the Rant ain't far behind at the first sign of disappointment...)

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How's that liver holding up?

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Better than my portfolio

This year's been interesting.

Fortunately, I only drink every other day.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Companies in the alcohol trade...

...supposedly do well in a recession. Of course, if I'm going to move money into the sector, I'd want to make sure I'm investing in a quality product. I think it's just about time to belly up to the bar.

by hitlesswonder on Feb 26, 2008 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i rode fortune brands

for a long time. got out a bit below it's peak last year. they're a diversified company with lots of different products, a major portion of which is alcohol. they've had some trouble in the past six or nine months or so (another area they have is home products stuff like faucets) but they are a generally solid company long-term with an interesting mix of products. i'm out of it so i'm not going to make even a fifth of a cent if you invest but they may be a company to look into. local (deerfield) company, as well.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

WU doesn't wear cufflinks...

those are curbfeelers.

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Feb 26, 2008 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Foul off pitches

work the count.

Pitchers make mistakes and miss the strike zone. It isn't going to happen if he goes up there and just holds the bat looking for a walk, I understand that.

His minor league stats do not show that he walked a lot.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

but why would they not throw him strikes?

he's a weak hitter. when you get him to two strikes after he's "fouled off pitches" and "worked the count," then you get him to "weakly dribble to 2B." there's little reason to worry about making a mistake to a hitter like jerry because the worst case is basically a single. and he'll do that far less than 1/3 of the time.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know who you should ask that too!

Ask that to Gavin Floyd and the rest of the Sox bullpen. I sadly recall last year when there were a lot of batters of similar caliber to JO batting against our guys and we walked them. Made me want to break another keyboard!

If it was as easy as just throwing strikes to mediocore players, pitching would be easy.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think you miss the point

the vast majority of "mediocre" players can hurt you badly if you give them something to hit because most mediocre players have this thing called "power." jerry owens does not. if you give him something to hit, he's not going to hit a double or home run. the worst case is pretty much that he's going to hit a single.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

A lot of players fit the profile of JO though. No Power with speed, and still have solid ML careers. They find a way to get on base.

Kenny Lofton, Juan Pierre, Figgins, Roberts, Furcal, Lugo...heck, look what Speedy Willie Harris did last year.

Your quote of "why not just throw him strikes" makes 100% sense, but it isn't that easy is all I am saying. Ask Don Cooper.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and like i said

those pitchers should be summarily waived.

you'll note that nearly all of those players you mention i included above in a list of implied horseshit players who shouldn't start. kenny lofton should not be included in that list because he does have power. or, more specifically, an ability to hit line drives and thus XBH and, in his prime, double-digit home runs. and furcal probably doesn't belong there (at least historically), either, considering he does (or did) hit home runs and XBH, too.

again, power should not simply be defined as the ability to hit home runs. it should be defined by an ability to hit XBH. jerry largely lacks that ability. he is not kenny lofton; he's otis nixon.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My Great Hope for '08...

is that Jermaine Dye has another great year and shuts all you guys up! I've grown so tired of reading the complaints about him on here.

Meanwhile, unproven minor leaguers get all the respect in the world here. Can we compile a list of SSSers that have actually seen Carlos Quentin play? I seem to remember a big "whatever" response when the Sox got him last year and suddenly he's the poster child. Suddenly he can hit (in your minds)!

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 11:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

do you think the rest of us

don't hope the same for dye? we just look at reality and see a guy who is 33, plays a poor RF, has nagging leg injuries, and a lifetime OPS+ of 110.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Honestly, yes.

Maybe not you, Larry, but I think a lot of self-loathing Sox fans hope their low expectations come true, so they see how much smarter than Sox brass they are. It just seems to be overboard with the Dye hating here. People take it as FACT that Dye will have a terrible season.

He's in a line-up with Konerko, Thome, and Swisher. His OPS+ with Sox is 125. He'll get his offense.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I haven't noticed anything of the sort with JD

He's very likable, plays hard, etc. He's just old.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Feb 26, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're not paying attention

A lot of people here were happy with the Quentin trade. I don't remember ANY "whatever" comments.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I love Jermaine Dye.

But he is absolutely atrocious in RF.

Triple.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Feb 26, 2008 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sure you guys have proof of this.

So I won't argue it. I have, however, noticed that a fair amount of the triples that are hit in baseball are hit to right field.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you watched Sox games last season...

you wouldn't even need to look at the statistics to see that Dye is a slow, plodding RF'er who turns doubles into triples. I still like him and have higher hopes for his bat than what he produced last season but he is no longer the gold glover that he once was. Dye should move to LF and Quentin should be in RF.

by SSH2005 on Feb 26, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd like to see what the #

of triples to right field was when Dye was out there. I'd bet (if you could somehow "park adjust" it) it would lead the majors.

his knees are shot.
he's slow.

He charges at balls (that he used to get to) and pulls up at the last second and often times the ball scoots by him. Maybe he'll make adjustments this year. I hope he does, because most probably he's going to be in right.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Feb 26, 2008 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wait

more triples are hit to the side of the field that is furthest from third base? you're shitting me. maybe it makes sense then to have a guy who can cut down on that problem playing out there and put the guy who can't cut down on that problem in LF where less triples are hit? shoot, that seems pretty darn logical.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Quentin

His shoulder surgery...was that his throwing shoulder?

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe this still could happen

If Quentin shows he has an arm in ST and can hit and JO falls on his face.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Who is your replacement?

A lot seems to falling on the shoulders (arm/bat) of Kid Quentin!

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you don't need to replace anyone

unless your mean re-place. JD goes to left. swisher and quentin are both capable (or better) in right and, arguably, both of them plus owens can play center.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I'm certainly not opposed.

It'd be nice to have a much more solidified everyday line-up by Opening Day. It's nice that a lot of our new players are versatile but I can see Ozzie really screwing that up. There seems to be WAY more "we'll see how they do in Spring Training before we decide anything" than usual.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No

What we have been reading here just after the first intrasquad game is that Kenny about p*ssed himself when Owens got a bunt single. We all know how KW and Ozzie like Owens after his last two months last year, so the feeling I am getting is that it is Owens job unless he really stinks it up.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What is?

LF? RF? CF?

You've

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

looks like d.i. just got snuffed

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No, I just swooned thinking about JD.

Bad timing too, since the part after "you've" was going to BLAZE that guy.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

By "Blaze"

do you mean "insert foot into mouth even farther?"

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and bobby turns the knife...

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, kid.

Where was my foot placed in my mouth to begin with?

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You asked

So here you go:

"There seems to be WAY more "we'll see how they do in Spring Training before we decide anything" than usual."

Why this is foot in mouth:
If you read the title of the Blog, the lead story of the Blog and the comments on this Blog along with all three of the beat writers today you would see that the actions of Ozzie and Kenny point to Jerry Owens starting in either CF or LF this year and leading off. Which completely contradicts your statement.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 1:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

this is tremendous, don, just tremendous

the atmosphere is heavy. uncertain. overtones of ugliness. a reminder, in a way, of how it was in march of 1964 in miami beach when clay met liston for the first time and nobody knew how it would turn out. the crowd is tense - they've been here since ten in the morning. and...i think i see the first salvo being sent...

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lol

My sarcasm just doesn't come across as well in type as it does in my head, I guess.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

VG.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Feb 26, 2008 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

F*ck me.

I didn't know Joe Cowley said it!

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Down Goes Frazier! Down Goes Frazier!

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bobby, you shook up the world!

You shook up the world! You're a baaad man!

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

owens update

Outfielder Jerry Owens said his right groin feels fine but said he was told he might be held out of games for "a couple days."

Owens wasn't in the White Sox's lineup for Tuesday's intrasquad game, and Wednesday's lineup for the exhibition opener against Colorado wasn't posted yet.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/02/owens-update.html

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 11:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Is Mrs. Pods lurking around Tucson?

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe it's serious

That'd make me happy

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 26, 2008 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

doubtful

just nipping it in the bud. no need to risk things.

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Baseball American's Top 100

Top 100 Prospects

Also, by organization:

7 - Rays, Red Sox
5 - Athletics, Braves, Cubs, Orioles, Rangers, Reds, Rockies
4 - Angels, Dodgers, Yankees
3 - Cardinals, Indians, Mariners, Marlins, Nationals, Phillies, Pirates, Royals, Twins
2 - Brewers, Diamondbacks, Giants, Padres
1 - Astros, Blue Jays, Mets, Tigers
0 - White Sox

by BoKnows on Feb 26, 2008 12:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

***America...whoops

by BoKnows on Feb 26, 2008 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sucks to be the Astros...

got to the World Series, didn't win it, and now that team is not good and they don't have a good farm system

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 26, 2008 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sunny Day Scenarios

Well, I did my part and conjured up a way for the Sox to fill the leadoff position with a useful fast keed. Colin seems steadfast that he's found some rationalization for a good year out of Floyd.

Everyone's already on their knees praying for Contreras. Add some healthy legs for JD to the list. A full season of health from Thome....

etc
etc
etc

Lots of things need to go right this year.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 26, 2008 12:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I watched the tape, man.

Don't you have mlb tv? Check out the slider and improved mechanics.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Feb 26, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

this is what the rays get

for talking smack

kazmir to have MRI

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 12:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Oh, my

Their curse, even with the deletion of "Devil" from the name, continues. This could be worse than the Scrubs (at least the Scrubs play .500 ball sometimes).

Just made my Sox tickets in Tampa in a couple of months easier to get. (Yeah, I would've been standing in line, otherwise.) Same for the Orlando games in May.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Would it be too "peace in our time"

for me to say that JO won't be starting and that Quentin, if legitimately healthy, will be in left?

Also: dudes, you need to take a lesson from my generation. The only kind of "hit" you guys need aren't from bunts, per se...

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Feb 26, 2008 12:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

(Inhales deeply, coughs)

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 26, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Something Old, meet Something New

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Feb 26, 2008 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

or

How I Stopped Worrying And Learned To Love The Possibility That I'm Now The E-Ricky Fitts.

...oh and despite the obvious paraphrasing, i want to make it clear that the "alternate title" thing is more homage to Rocky and Bullwinkle than Kubrick.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Feb 26, 2008 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

MB's left shoulder shredded; surgery next

just seeing if you're paying attention.

MB's shoulder fine, throws ball many times

by larry on Feb 26, 2008 1:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

OMG NO!!

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Feb 26, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Choked on my sandwich

Couldn't breath for 50 seconds. Okay now.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Where is

Danny Richar? Still at the Dominican Airport?

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Feb 26, 2008 1:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Fatolo's contract...

Bartolo Colon will earn $7 million this year if he wins a job out of spring training and makes 30 starts for the Red Sox.
Colon's base salary is $1.25 million. He's scheduled to make just $18,000 per month while in the minors. Since it looks like he'll spend much of April in the minors, it's doubtful he'll make the full $7 million.

Source: Boston Herald

by SSH2005 on Feb 26, 2008 1:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs